Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[Bootstrap]

And a similar process of some radicals becoming Founding Fathers happened in the U.S. I'm not justifying it but Boot's claim that Israel has engaged in terrorism is not demonstrated in the example you give.

What is your definition of terrorism?

First off, what Hamas did is CLEARLY terrorism. Nothing I say below changes that.

Let's start with a definition:

The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

I think these things count as terrorism. They are doing some of these things now, others in the past:

1. Collective Punishment - putting entire civilian populations under siege, denying millions of people access to food, water, electricity, functioning hospitals, cutting off cellphone service when they might most need it to get help or see if their friends and relatives are still alive.
2. Indiscriminate bombing of hospitals, schools, and residential neighborhoods. Even if Hamas has committed perfidy by putting some of their centers in these places, the hospital patients, children, and neighbors did not.
3. Punitive Demolitions - bulldozing the homes of innocent relatives of people who either attacked Israel or were suspected of doing so, often with no trial of any kind.

I would also include some things that happened before statehood:

• The King David Hotel bombing (1946)
• Deir Yassin massacre (1948)

But it would include especially acts done by the State of Israel that were not aimed at militants, things that were not really even "collateral damage". There are tens of thousands of Hamas militants in Gaza, but there are literally millions of innocent Palestinian refugees, and the vast majority of them have never done anything to threaten Israel.

[Szdfan]

I meant Israel qua Israel, not some radical group of Jews that held no real power and were of little consequence in the long-term.

You do realize that the radical group of Jews you are referring to was led by a no-consequence "nobody" named Menachem Begin who founded the Likud Party and became the 6th Prime Minister of Israel?

The Irgun was also not disbanded after 1948 but folded into the Israeli Army. And after 1948 the Irgun membership formed the right-wing Herat party which was the actual forerunner of Likud. In the first Israeli elections in 1949 the Herat Party gained 14 seats in the Knesset and were key opponents to Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion's progressive party?

And a similar process of some radicals becoming Founding Fathers happened in the U.S. I'm not justifying it but Boot's claim that Israel has engaged in terrorism is not demonstrated in the example you give.

Do the extra-judicial revenge killings by Mossad after the 1972 Munich Olympics count as terrorism?

[Josh]

Do the extra-judicial revenge killings by Mossad after the 1972 Munich Olympics count as terrorism?

I would say so.

It bears repeating that none of us think Hamas' behaviour is justifiable and generally speaking they resort to terrorist tactics. In the early days of the PLO, the radical faction sought training in guerilla tactics and ended up hiring the LTEE to train them on how to use tactics like suicide vests.

None of this makes doing the same thing back somehow OK. In fact, that's the precise problem. Israeli atrocities make Hamas' P.R. task much easier. And for the sake of fairness, I want to be very clear that the U.S. has engaged in a lot of the same very problematic conduct.

[Ken]

Do the extra-judicial revenge killings by Mossad after the 1972 Munich Olympics count as terrorism?

Those were probably categorized as targeted extra-judicial assassinations.

terrorism usually has an element that includes random attacks or terror attacks on random civilians.

blowing up airliners
blowing up buildings
suicide bombings on civilian targets
massacres of civilians

Most states do not engage in terrorism directly but many (like Iran) do sponsor it. Ironically, Israel itself could be considered a state sponsor of terrorism because for years Netanyahu has actually supported the rise of Hamas as a counterweight against Fatah and as a way to undermine the 2-state solution. https://www.analystnews.org/posts/how-i ... or-decades

Money quote:

“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” -Netanyahu

[joshuabgood]

They only apply to people who choose to follow Jesus. Your quip is unfair to Valerie.

I believe this was in response to Valerie mentioning people who claim to be Christian but wiggle around Jesus' teaching about nonresistance. In that context, I don't believe joshuabgood is being unfair.

That being said, I believe that Jesus calls everyone to follow and obey him, and everyone who rejects Him will be judged for that, whether or not they profess to be His follower.

Forgive me then JBG. If that was what Valerie was saying I would have to agree with you.
I also agree with you Ken in that last statement. However, I do not expect States, led as they are by non-believers to make normative the teachings of Jesus on nonresistance and love of enemy.

The principal leader of the USA is in fact "a believer" who is devout and belongs to a large Christian denomination that doesn't make normative actually following the teachings of Jesus (though there are exceptions to be sure).

[HondurasKeiser]

The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

That's a good definition.

I think these things count as terrorism. They are doing some of these things now, others in the past:

1. Collective Punishment - putting entire civilian populations under siege, denying millions of people access to food, water, electricity, functioning hospitals, cutting off cellphone service when they might most need it to get help or see if their friends and relatives are still alive.

Placing entire populations under siege is perfectly conventional when the enemy of of the besiegers has chosen to embed themselves within the civilian population.

Did the U.S. worry about opening up supply lines to Japan or Germany when prosecuting the initial phases of the WWII? Was the U.S. thus engaged in terrorism? Did the U.S. care to maintain cell service for Iraq so that people could check in on friends and family during the invasion? Of course not, because doing so would also aid and abet the enemy.

What's more, Gaza has gasoline and water and food - it's simply being held and utilized by Hamas for their war machine.

For 36,000th time - Israel has attempted to mitigate civilian losses by encouraging them to move to the south of Gaza. Hamas has refused to allow the civilians to flee. Who then is actually perpetrating terror on the Gazan civilians?

[*] Indiscriminate bombing of hospitals, schools, and residential neighborhoods. Even if Hamas has committed perfidy by putting some of their centers in these places, the hospital patients, children, and neighbors did not.

Indiscriminate bombing is a mischaracterization of what has been occurring. Hamas has chosen to embed their military installations in hospitals and schools. Israel is attempting to target those installations.

[*] Punitive Demolitions - bulldozing the homes of innocent relatives of people who either attacked Israel or were suspected of doing so, often with no trial of any kind.[/list]

I would also include some things that happened before statehood:

• The King David Hotel bombing (1946)
• Deir Yassin massacre (1948)

I wouldn't blame Israel for things that happened prior to the creation of the State of Israel. The pre-State history is a murky, mess of injustices on both sides that I don't think anyone here is qualified to unpack, even if they're particularly adept at reading Wikipedia.

Since statehood, one side has consistently used terrorism to further their goals and one side consistently has not.

But it would include especially acts done by the State of Israel that were not aimed at militants, things that were not really even "collateral damage". There are tens of thousands of Hamas militants in Gaza, but there are literally millions of innocent Palestinian refugees, and the vast majority of them have never done anything to threaten Israel.

Yes Boot, war affects everyone, including civilians. That's why people refer to it as hell.

[HondurasKeiser]

I believe this was in response to Valerie mentioning people who claim to be Christian but wiggle around Jesus' teaching about nonresistance. In that context, I don't believe joshuabgood is being unfair.

That being said, I believe that Jesus calls everyone to follow and obey him, and everyone who rejects Him will be judged for that, whether or not they profess to be His follower.

Forgive me then JBG. If that was what Valerie was saying I would have to agree with you.
I also agree with you Ken in that last statement. However, I do not expect States, led as they are by non-believers to make normative the teachings of Jesus on nonresistance and love of enemy.

The principal leader of the USA is in fact "a believer" who is devout and belongs to a large Christian denomination that doesn't make normative actually following the teachings of Jesus (though there are exceptions to be sure).

It's an open question whether or not one can be considered a believer in Jesus whilst not believing Jesus.

[HondurasKeiser]

You do realize that the radical group of Jews you are referring to was led by a no-consequence "nobody" named Menachem Begin who founded the Likud Party and became the 6th Prime Minister of Israel?

The Irgun was also not disbanded after 1948 but folded into the Israeli Army. And after 1948 the Irgun membership formed the right-wing Herat party which was the actual forerunner of Likud. In the first Israeli elections in 1949 the Herat Party gained 14 seats in the Knesset and were key opponents to Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion's progressive party?

And a similar process of some radicals becoming Founding Fathers happened in the U.S. I'm not justifying it but Boot's claim that Israel has engaged in terrorism is not demonstrated in the example you give.

Do the extra-judicial revenge killings by Mossad after the 1972 Munich Olympics count as terrorism?

No. Ken in his way, explained it well.

[MaxPC]

It bears repeating that none of us think Hamas' behaviour is justifiable and generally speaking they resort to terrorist tactics. In the early days of the PLO, the radical faction sought training in guerilla tactics and ended up hiring the LTEE to train them on how to use tactics like suicide vests.

None of this makes doing the same thing back somehow OK. In fact, that's the precise problem. Israeli atrocities make Hamas' P.R. task much easier. And for the sake of fairness, I want to be very clear that the U.S. has engaged in a lot of the same very problematic conduct.

I think it would be fair to say that every nation/state/empire in the history of mankind has engaged in the same at some point. The sinful nature of the human race is that of engaging in “gotcha war games” to humiliate and or conquer a group who has threatened them; or who they think has threatened them regardless of whether it is reality or not.

Paranoia is an old mental affliction among humans. The paranoid will attack their imagined enemies too.

[Bootstrap]

What's more, Gaza has gasoline and water and food - it's simply being held and utilized by Hamas for their war machine.

That's why holding civilians under siege is not an effective military strategy. The military always gets top priority while civilians suffer. And that kind of suffering builds hate. Palestinians love their children and families just as much as Israelis do.

Are you blaming Palestinian civilians for the fact that Hamas takes what gas and water and food is there first, leaving very little for the civilians? Does that make these civilians legitimate targets for Israel?

For 36,000th time - Israel has attempted to mitigate civilian losses by encouraging them to move to the south of Gaza. Hamas has refused to allow the civilians to flee. Who then is actually perpetrating terror on the Gazan civilians?

Israel is quite literally perpetrating terror on the Gazan civilians. Is that even a question? Yes, Hamas is doing things that make it even worse, but if you kill someone with weapons, it's not somebody else's fault. The vast majority of deaths are civilian deaths. Look at today's strike - yes, at least one of the people killed was a military target. But how many civilians died in that strike?

And where in the South of Gaza are they supposed to go to have safe shelter, food, water, and medical supplies? Would they really be safer there? Can they realistically go there? You are a family in Gaza City, what exactly do you do to be safe?