Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Josh]

"Ukraine" is not some culture independent of Russia. It is part and parcel a part of Russian culture and people and always has been, going back for millennia.

If this is true why did Stalin go in and literally starve the Ukrainians to death to claim their rich grain fields? It is all spoken about and recorded in the book The Red Famine- Stalin's war with Ukraine. That doesn't speak to an independent culture for Russia. I have met several Ukrainians in my work with ESL- they speak of their culture as separate they do not consider themselves Russian.

As to language- one couple we worked with the wife spoke both Russian and Ukrainian as she was better with languages but her husband grew up with the USSR owning? Ukraine and did not speak Ukrainian. Their children spoke mostly Ukrainian by choice as they were part of the independent Ukraine after the USSR split up.

Do you know any Ukrainians or have you read any of their words as opposed to news media on either side? What I am hearing from them, not thru new media but directly from them- they did not want this to occur, they do not wish to be a part of Russia.

That depends. “Ukrainian” is not one single bloc of people. People from Donetsk have one set of opinions, people from Lviv or Kiev have different ones.

Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea already held referendums and publicly voted to aligned with Russia. I’m not sure what is so hard to grasp about this.

Ukraine was 100% part of the Russian empire in the 1800s too. That seems relevant here.

[Ken]

That depends. “Ukrainian” is not one single bloc of people. People from Donetsk have one set of opinions, people from Lviv or Kiev have different ones.

Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea already held referendums and publicly voted to aligned with Russia. I’m not sure what is so hard to grasp about this.

Ukraine was 100% part of the Russian empire in the 1800s too. That seems relevant here.

The territorial extent of the Russian empire in the 1800s is no more relevant today than the territorial extents of the French or British empires in the 1800s. We no longer live in an imperialist world. Alaska was 100% a part of the Russian empire in the 1800s. As was Finland. So no, the borders of the Russian Empire in say 1820 are utterly irrelevant here. Just as the borders of the British empire in the 18th century are irrelevant today. And we don't see the UK invading India, Kenya, Myanmar, Canada or Ireland in wars of conquest based on 18th century maps. Even though there are "English Speaking" peoples in all of those countries.

As for these famous 'referendums' that you keep referring to. These were unsanctioned referendums held by the separatists within the separatist parts of Donetsk and Luhansk and were not recognized by Ukraine or any other nation including Russia and were not conducted under any sort of international or nonpartisan supervision. So the results were predictably garbage and meaningless. In addition, under the Ukrainian constitution, territorial changes can ONLY be approved by a referendum of ALL citizens of Ukraine, not simply a small portion in one part of the country. It is the same in every other country in the world. Take, for example, the US, Canada, or Spain, or China where separatists in South Carolina, Quebec, Catalan or Hong Kong have at various times voted for their own vote for independence. No country on the planet accommodates a separatist movement holding its own referendum within only one part of a country. Ukraine is no different from the US or Canada, Spain, or China. In fact Russia itself wouldn't tolerate an independence referendum in any part of its existing territory either. And has brutally put them down when they have emerged like in Chechnya. Count on it.

[Josh]

I support a right to self determination for a minority group when the government (with the consent of the majority group) is busy shelling (for example) the minority group. So, yes, if Spain decides to start shelling Catalan, I would be strongly in support of Catalonian independence. (I would generally support Catalonian independence and Basque separatism anyway, Scottish independence, and so on.)

But in any case, the U.S. opened the door for this when they decided to violate Serbia's territorial integrity and carve new nations out of thin air. How is what happened in Kosovo any different than this?

[Swiss Bro]

https://www.hilfeetg.ch/

This is the website of the support foundation of the Evangelische Täufergemeinden. Donations will go specifically to our brethren in the Ukraine. Just in case you are looking for a good way to contribute and help.

[temporal1]

No agreements made during talks this morning.

(i hope) the important words are: “second round of negotiations” ^^^ ..

.. Perhaps the reaction is stronger because Putin's war speech implicitly threatened the sovereignty of several other countries as well?

NATO’s complicity leading up to and response merits sober consideration.

“As Russia Batters Ukraine, Both Sides Say They Are Ready for More Talks”
https://time.com/6153790/russia-ukraine-more-talks/

- - - - - -

Is it possible to understand why someone does something without actually endorsing the person and what they do?
Or is this deemed impossible?

It’s not only possible, but healthy+desireable.
Do not expect to find such sophistication on the internet, or in social media, which wallows in the primitive.

The formula was set in concrete by years+years of “Never Trumpers” who demanded anything less than full-blown hate was proof-positive of DJT idol-worship. The simple-minded formula continues today, with no sign of fading. The game is LOVED.

Reasonable thinking people can be assured, rarely is anything black+white, particularly in politics.

As an example, i just viewed a documentary-style video on JFK (post recent release of old files) that not only went into his sex addictions (and described this as fairly normal in high politics) but, his interactions, his father’s ties with Chicago mobs; the latter was way more disturbing (for me). That is, i learned long ago of carnal amorality and coverups, in politics.

Any inferrence that any of these guys is “innocent,” or guiltless, should be rejected. At most, it’s by degrees.

[temporal1]

There are claims that none of the financial fallout of the invasion has been a surprise to Putin, who has likely been planning this operation for a long time. However there are probably a lot of powerful Russians who weren't prepared.

My Dad in Kaliningrad posted on FB that he's unable to access his German bank account.

What a mess.

Very like last week in Canada.

[temporal1]

ohio jones:
If Ukraine survives as an independent nation, it is virtually guaranteed to join the EU and NATO on a fast-track basis, thanks to the shift of public opinion resulting from Putin's invasion.

Russia-friendly bureaucrats seem to have been doing a pretty efficient job of stalling those applications up until now.

Ukraine needs to be cautious about overall costs. Especially overall cultural costs.
i hope this is weighed carefully, “all that glitters” ..

Ukraine should be very interested in the plays over years by NATO and any others, that led to this result.
Maybe nothing! This needs to be figured out.

Is this more a battle between Russia+NATO, with Ukraine just the spoils? The agreed upon location?
Or, something else? Is Ukraine being used by both sides?

[ohio jones]

I support a right to self determination for a minority group when the government (with the consent of the majority group) is busy shelling (for example) the minority group. So, yes, if Spain decides to start shelling Catalan, I would be strongly in support of Catalonian independence. (I would generally support Catalonian independence and Basque separatism anyway, Scottish independence, and so on.)

So if Russia is shelling Ukraine, you support Ukrainian independence, right?

[Josh]

So if Russia is shelling Ukraine, you support Ukrainian independence, right?

Yes, if they'd had a habit of doing that for the last 8 years, I would support that.

Supporting people in Donetsk and Luhansk is obviously not the same thing. Russia has been quite patient about this and has put up with unreasonable behaviour from the Ukraine now for 8 years. The obvious question is - what exactly does the West expect? Do they really think they should expect Russia (and China, India, Brazil, and other nations choosing to be non-aligned) to simply let America and NATO do whatever they want right on their borders without repurcussions?

We opened this door when we decided to invade Serbia and create Kosovo. There are no "rules" anymore. It's just about whatever you can get away with.

[Ken]

So if Russia is shelling Ukraine, you support Ukrainian independence, right?

Yes, if they'd had a habit of doing that for the last 8 years, I would support that.

Supporting people in Donetsk and Luhansk is obviously not the same thing. Russia has been quite patient about this and has put up with unreasonable behaviour from the Ukraine now for 8 years. The obvious question is - what exactly does the West expect? Do they really think they should expect Russia (and China, India, Brazil, and other nations choosing to be non-aligned) to simply let America and NATO do whatever they want right on their borders without repurcussions?

We opened this door when we decided to invade Serbia and create Kosovo. There are no "rules" anymore. It's just about whatever you can get away with.

Yes Josh, there have been separatist wars all across the planet over the past century. In Ireland and then Northern Ireland. In Sri Lanka, in Indonesia. Across Africa in Sudan, Ethiopia, Morocco, etc. In Yemen. In Syria. In Spain with the Basque ETA. In the US with our own civil war. They tend to be dirty, ugly, and extremely violent. And I'm surprised that you would support any of this.

So now your example is Kosovo? In point of fact, modern Serbia is a legacy of the breakup of Yugoslavia. And before that it was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Ottoman Empire, and Holy Roman Empires for centuries. The breakup of Yugoslavia was a horrible mess full of genocide and "ethnic cleansings" in Bosnia, Croatia, and Serbia. The UN stepped in far too late to stop genocide in Bosnia and was quicker to respond when the same pattern of genocide began in Kosovo under Slobodan Milošević who was tried for crimes against humanity in Kosovo by the UN's international war crimes tribunal at the Hague and who died in a UN prison cell. The NATO involvement was perhaps questionable under international law. But no NATO countries laid claim to Kosovo as Russia is doing with Ukraine.

In any event, the people of Kosovo have been ruled by the Hapsburgs, the Ottomans, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and the multi-ethnic state of Yugoslavia for most of the past 500 years. They were under Serbian rule for only a few short years during the breakup of Yugoslavia.