Randal Martin on the CAM/Jeriah Debacle

[Ernie]

I'm guessing you're referencing CAM, Ernie, when you say "I don't know anyone who lifts him high"? If so, has Stanely Fox changed his perspective on HH? I do understand if you have no way of knowing. Not so much attempting to grill you personally as to point out the persistent, pervasive nature of the unwavering support HH has received for decades despite a "cloud of concerns" hanging over him.

Yes, I was referring to CAM. The CAM staff I know about, some of who are also part of the Haiti crisis committee, have no kind of support for HH. Stanley fox has left CAM and I barely know him or his reasons for leaving. I was not aware of the Charity response.

[Aurien]

I was a sexual assault advocate in the Navy... I actually dealt with two cases and both times... no offense to them, they were being stupid. Going to a hotel room alone with your boyfriend on a 4 day weekend... The other one was so out there that I pitied the guy. I didn't stay with him because he ended up requesting a woman which was understandable. One remained private, the other unfortunately was reported to the quarterdeck. She would have rather it remained private...

John 8 (changed a bit to reflect Soloist's view)

2. At dawn he went to the temple again, and all the people were coming to him. He sat down and began to teach them.
3. Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, making her stand in the center.
4. “Teacher,” they said to him, “this woman was caught in the act of committing adultery.
5. In the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?”
6. They asked this to trap him, in order that they might have evidence to accuse him. Jesus stooped down and started writing on the ground with his finger.
7. When they persisted in questioning him, he stood up and said to them, “No offense to her, she was being stupid. Having sexual relations with a man who wasn't her husband...
8. Then he stooped down again and continued writing on the ground.
9. When they heard this, they picked up stones one by one, starting with the older men, and stoned her.

[Wade]

I was a sexual assault advocate in the Navy... I actually dealt with two cases and both times... no offense to them, they were being stupid. Going to a hotel room alone with your boyfriend on a 4 day weekend... The other one was so out there that I pitied the guy. I didn't stay with him because he ended up requesting a woman which was understandable. One remained private, the other unfortunately was reported to the quarterdeck. She would have rather it remained private...

John 8 (changed a bit to reflect Soloist's view)

2. At dawn he went to the temple again, and all the people were coming to him. He sat down and began to teach them.
3. Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, making her stand in the center.
4. “Teacher,” they said to him, “this woman was caught in the act of committing adultery.
5. In the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?”
6. They asked this to trap him, in order that they might have evidence to accuse him. Jesus stooped down and started writing on the ground with his finger.
7. When they persisted in questioning him, he stood up and said to them, “No offense to her, she was being stupid. Having sexual relations with a man who wasn't her husband...
8. Then he stooped down again and continued writing on the ground.
9. When they heard this, they picked up stones one by one, starting with the older men, and stoned her.

I think you maybe misunderstanding Soloist...

For all the woman adult rape victims I have tried to help and counsel - nearly every one of them have either placed themselves into a very poor situation by consentually going somewhere privately during a party where drinking was involved and/or the victim returns willingly to have sex with the man again at some point even after being raped...

The mentally of an abuse victim can therefore be very challenging to relate to.

Sometimes the victims seem to stop feeling any anger toward the perpetrator(s) and may direct that anger towards others ( I think this is a natural insecurity instinct as a form of protection to test and see who they can trust - but is extremely hard on the one helping to understand).

Now in terms of childhood abuse victims my experience is far less but I would hazard to guess to think that even though no child abuse is consentual there are some similar struggles in regards to the victim relating to and finding people they can trust because of not wanting to be so vulnerable again which can make the situation hard for us to understand at times. - I am sorry we are not always more sensitive.

[RZehr]

I was a sexual assault advocate in the Navy... I actually dealt with two cases and both times... no offense to them, they were being stupid. Going to a hotel room alone with your boyfriend on a 4 day weekend... The other one was so out there that I pitied the guy. I didn't stay with him because he ended up requesting a woman which was understandable. One remained private, the other unfortunately was reported to the quarterdeck. She would have rather it remained private...

John 8 (changed a bit to reflect Soloist's view)

2. At dawn he went to the temple again, and all the people were coming to him. He sat down and began to teach them.
3. Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, making her stand in the center.
4. “Teacher,” they said to him, “this woman was caught in the act of committing adultery.
5. In the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?”
6. They asked this to trap him, in order that they might have evidence to accuse him. Jesus stooped down and started writing on the ground with his finger.
7. When they persisted in questioning him, he stood up and said to them, “No offense to her, she was being stupid. Having sexual relations with a man who wasn't her husband...
8. Then he stooped down again and continued writing on the ground.
9. When they heard this, they picked up stones one by one, starting with the older men, and stoned her.

In your paraphrase here, is the adulterous woman HH/JM, or is she the victims?

[Aurien]

I was a sexual assault advocate in the Navy... I actually dealt with two cases and both times... no offense to them, they were being stupid. Going to a hotel room alone with your boyfriend on a 4 day weekend... The other one was so out there that I pitied the guy. I didn't stay with him because he ended up requesting a woman which was understandable. One remained private, the other unfortunately was reported to the quarterdeck. She would have rather it remained private...

John 8 (changed a bit to reflect Soloist's view)

2. At dawn he went to the temple again, and all the people were coming to him. He sat down and began to teach them.
3. Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, making her stand in the center.
4. “Teacher,” they said to him, “this woman was caught in the act of committing adultery.
5. In the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?”
6. They asked this to trap him, in order that they might have evidence to accuse him. Jesus stooped down and started writing on the ground with his finger.
7. When they persisted in questioning him, he stood up and said to them, “No offense to her, she was being stupid. Having sexual relations with a man who wasn't her husband...
8. Then he stooped down again and continued writing on the ground.
9. When they heard this, they picked up stones one by one, starting with the older men, and stoned her.

In your paraphrase here, is the adulterous woman HH/JM, or is she the victims?

In my paraphrase here the adulterous woman is a reference to the sexual assault victim(s) in Soloist's post.


Soloist said,

I actually dealt with two cases and both times... no offense to them, they were being stupid. Going to a hotel room alone with your boyfriend on a 4 day weekend...

[Aurien]

I was a sexual assault advocate in the Navy... I actually dealt with two cases and both times... no offense to them, they were being stupid. Going to a hotel room alone with your boyfriend on a 4 day weekend... The other one was so out there that I pitied the guy. I didn't stay with him because he ended up requesting a woman which was understandable. One remained private, the other unfortunately was reported to the quarterdeck. She would have rather it remained private...

John 8 (changed a bit to reflect Soloist's view)

2. At dawn he went to the temple again, and all the people were coming to him. He sat down and began to teach them.
3. Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, making her stand in the center.
4. “Teacher,” they said to him, “this woman was caught in the act of committing adultery.
5. In the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?”
6. They asked this to trap him, in order that they might have evidence to accuse him. Jesus stooped down and started writing on the ground with his finger.
7. When they persisted in questioning him, he stood up and said to them, “No offense to her, she was being stupid. Having sexual relations with a man who wasn't her husband...
8. Then he stooped down again and continued writing on the ground.
9. When they heard this, they picked up stones one by one, starting with the older men, and stoned her.

I think you maybe misunderstanding Soloist...

For all the woman adult rape victims I have tried to help and counsel - nearly every one of them have either placed themselves into a very poor situation by consentually going somewhere privately during a party where drinking was involved and/or the victim returns willingly to have sex with the man again at some point even after being raped...

The mentally of an abuse victim can therefore be very challenging to relate to.

Sometimes the victims seem to stop feeling any anger toward the perpetrator(s) and may direct that anger towards others ( I think this is a natural insecurity instinct as a form of protection to test and see who they can trust - but is extremely hard on the one helping to understand).

Now in terms of childhood abuse victims my experience is far less but I would hazard to guess to think that even though no child abuse is consentual there are some similar struggles in regards to the victim relating to and finding people they can trust because of not wanting to be so vulnerable again which can make the situation hard for us to understand at times. - I am sorry we are not always more sensitive.

I am not misunderstanding Soloist.

Those women are still victims. Even if someone places themselves into what you believe is a poor situation they still have the right to not be sexually assaulted.

Have you been formally trained regarding sexual assault and trauma? If not have you at least tried to educate yourself regarding sexual assault and trauma? From your posts it doesn't seem that you have and I'm concerned that you may be inadvertently doing more damage to victims of sexual assault. Your intentions seem to be good but without the proper knowledge those intentions can be very damaging. I may have the best intentions in the world when trying to help a heart attack victim but without proper training I may end up causing their death. The same goes for emotional and psychological traumas. They affect the functions of the brain, and abuse victims need someone to help them who has training in abuse and trauma.
Please note that I'm not saying that you shouldn't pray with/for victims or share Jesus with them, but there's a time for that and there's a time to know your limitations and recommend that someone seek professional help.

[Aurien]

[RZehr]

Where does the first time rapist fall here? He isn’t a rapist until after the fact. Just being technical, not excusing personal responsibility.

[Aurien]

I've posted this before over in the CAM scandal thread I think, but I'm reposting it here for those who are looking for resources on sexual assault.


https://www.abetterway.org/resources

[Aurien]

Where does the first time rapist fall here? He isn’t a rapist until after the fact. Just being technical, not excusing personal responsibility.

He was a rapist in his heart/mind first.

Matthew 15:19
For from the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual immoralities, thefts, false testimonies, slander.

Mathew 5
27. “You have heard that it was said, Do not commit adultery.
28. But I tell you, everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

If Jesus says that everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has committed adultery in his heart then I believe he would also say that anyone who looks at another person with the idea of raping them has already committed rape in their heart.