Amish farm under threat from U.S. federal govt for refusal to abandon traditional farming practices

[temporal1]

Szd:
Considering that I don’t think anyone here believes that arguments here are legal advice, I don’t understand what your argument is.

see how much we have in common?!
this is pretty much my response when you’ve made similar comments. (i don’t have an example at the moment.)

Szd:
Part of making a good argument is citing credible sources. Are you arguing that Miller has not attempted to fire his lawyer or bog down the court with filings?

i have no opinion on this topic.
my experience with actual lawyers, doctors, etc., is that their counsel almost never matches what is guessed or hoped-for.
they typically scoff at google searches.
i just wanted to remind folks to keep that in mind as the internet chatter moves along.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Has anyone EVER become ill by purchasing from him?
Plenty have been harmed by Big Pharma products- and they continue selling same products knowing they harm people- there is a growing movement to not trust FDA, big pharma, hospitals, and of course our government. Amos Miller is doing a good thing made to look like the bad guy by the bad guys

Yes someone died from milk they bought from him.

Apparently you didn't read the whole thread.

One of his customers died of stomach cancer in a hospital. The CDC decided two years later that this counted as a "listeria" outbreak because they found a "genetic similarity" between listeria found in the woman who died of cancer, and listeria they found in his raw chocolate milk. This woman's family maintains she never bought his chocolate milk.

Saying "someone died from the milk they bought from him" is repeating a lie.

Not necessarily. Someone cultured Listeria out of a cancer patient. You don’t normally find that in a hospital setting, at least I never heard of it in 40+ years. Think about it, an opportunistic infection in a cancer patient. Enough to push her over the edge? Well someone sent this culture to the CDC, so someone thought it was important enough to do the time and paper work.

I would be content to say, they cultured a bacteria, genetically similar to samples from the dairy, from a patient that died. You never want cancer patients to pick up infections. Whatever Listeria infected her simply should not have been there.

J.M.

[Szdfan]

Has anyone EVER become ill by purchasing from him?
Plenty have been harmed by Big Pharma products- and they continue selling same products knowing they harm people- there is a growing movement to not trust FDA, big pharma, hospitals, and of course our government. Amos Miller is doing a good thing made to look like the bad guy by the bad guys

There two two listeriosis cases in 2014 from tainted milk that were traced back to Miller's farm. One woman in Florida died from it -- Nett claims the woman's family says it wasn't listeria and the CDC just decided it was, but I don't know if what Nett says is true, What we do know is that the CDC definitely believes that Miller Farms was the source of the outbreak due to USDA genetic testing of the raw milk.

https://www.cdc.gov/listeria/outbreaks/ ... index.html

Although the two illnesses occurred in 2014, the source of these illnesses wasn’t known until January 29, 2016, when the U.S. Food and Drug Administration informed CDC that whole genome sequencing of Listeria bacteria from raw chocolate milk produced by Miller’s Organic Farm showed that it was closely related genetically to Listeria bacteria from the two ill people described above.

Yes an outbreak of....2 people on opposite ends of the country. Should we get Fauci involved and lock down again?

How many people do you think need to be hospitalized from tainted food before something should be done about it?

The implicit trust that all you anti-miller posters have of anything hosted on a .gov site amuses me to no end.

The CDC also used to believe that COVID vaccines prevent transmission, do you remember that?

In a 2021 interview, Miller said about his customers and food, “They use it as a medicine.” “It’s very healing to the body because it’s raw.”

That’s snake oil salesman nonsense. I’m going to trust the USDA and CDC over the snake oil salesman.

[Franklin]

This debate is pointless. The solution is simple. America should be split in two, and everyone who believes that the central government should regulate everything should move to one half, and everyone who believes in local government should move to the other half. Problem solved, and no more debates.

[steve-in-kville]

JohnHurt:
I would not trust "foodsafetynews.com" for an unbiased opinion.

Nor should this forum’s google copy+paste champions be confused with interpretation of law, or legal counsel.
Or scriptural interpretation, or most anything else.

Neither should pulling nonsense out of your bodonkadonk.

Been a while since I shot coffee through my nose...

[mike]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this standard with all meat packing facilities —USDA inspectors are supposed to have access and can show up anytime? Miller isn’t being targeted, he’s facing the sane requirements as everyone else.

I think so. The USDA inspector for a local butcher shop that I do business with has his own office in the building, even though it is a fairly small operation. I don't know if he is actually there every minute of the time when they are butchering, but he certainly can be.

The difference is, your local butcher shop is selling to the public. Miller is selling to his private club.

The government doesn't see that difference as meaningful. If I were to require that all the customers that come through the door of my grocery store be "members" of my "private club," could I then declare that I don't need to sanitize my meat cutting equipment?

[Valerie]

I think so. The USDA inspector for a local butcher shop that I do business with has his own office in the building, even though it is a fairly small operation. I don't know if he is actually there every minute of the time when they are butchering, but he certainly can be.

The difference is, your local butcher shop is selling to the public. Miller is selling to his private club.

The government doesn't see that difference as meaningful. If I were to require that all the customers that come through the door of my grocery store be "members" of my "private club," could I then declare that I don't need to sanitize my meat cutting equipment?

No. But that is different than their complaint against him- it is their opinion of what is sanitizing or selling safe meat. Obviously he is selling safe meat. Is there no room for the FDA to be wrong about this?

[mike]

No. But that is different than their complaint against him- it is their opinion of what is sanitizing or selling safe meat. Obviously he is selling safe meat. Is there no room for the FDA to be wrong about this?

Anything can be the case, but regulations are what they are, and the government is not accepting his claim of exemption. It's not going to turn out well for him unless he complies. You or I may not like it, but there is basically NO chance he prevails in this fight.

[ken_sylvania]

The difference is, your local butcher shop is selling to the public. Miller is selling to his private club.

The government doesn't see that difference as meaningful. If I were to require that all the customers that come through the door of my grocery store be "members" of my "private club," could I then declare that I don't need to sanitize my meat cutting equipment?

No. But that is different than their complaint against him- it is their opinion of what is sanitizing or selling safe meat. Obviously he is selling safe meat. Is there no room for the FDA to be wrong about this?

And yet, sanitizing meat cutting equipment, proper refrigeration of meat, and a plethora of other standard food handling practices, are standard and generally accepted because of FDA requirements.

Is he for sure selling safe meat? How would we know? He requires his customers to agree not to complain publicly about any bad food that they might receive. He requires them to agree that they will not sue him for anything whatsoever, and to agree that if they do sue him, they will reimburse him for all costs associated with defending against the suit, regardless of whether he was at fault. He claims that his agreement is to protect his customer's rights, but if you actually read it, what he's asking them to do is sign away basically all of their rights. It's not the kind of agreement that an honest, upright, trustworthy person asks their customers to sign. It's the type of agreement that shysters (like phone companies, cable companies, etc) make their customers sign, only worse because those companies often abide by the letter of the law in their agreements while this guy makes his customers agree to terms that he cannot legally enforce.

Think carefully about how readily this man is willing to lie to the court, his willingness to require his customers to agree to illegal terms in order to buy from him, his willingness to straight-up lie to his customers about whether shipping meat from PA to CA is "interstate commerce," and ask yourself if this man can be trusted to determine what is safe handling practices for meat. Would you trust the FDA if they lied like he does? If not, why would you trust him?

[steve-in-kville]

Think carefully about how readily this man is willing to lie to the court, his willingness to require his customers to agree to illegal terms in order to buy from him, his willingness to straight-up lie to his customers about whether shipping meat from PA to CA is "interstate commerce," and ask yourself if this man can be trusted to determine what is safe handling practices for meat. Would you trust the FDA if they lied like he does? If not, why would you trust him?

This made headlines again today.