Alex Jones...

[temporal1]

using lazyman’s quick google copy+paste to criticize others’ dedicated physical search attempts is amusing.

This seems to be a regular contribution from some contributors in nearly every thread.

personally, i more value considered thoughtful opinions, esp of those i have some history-trust, over lazymen’s google approach. google, and ilk, are known to have distinct biases that distort search results. (i google, with caution, not abandon.)

i also pray folks will keep/protect their old publications, they’re not likely to reappear - without prevailing biased edits+additions.
old publications have old limitations+biases, contemporary ones, ditto - count on it!!

the public cannot count on gov libraries to keep old books/documents.
they have culling processes that are subject to human failure. one important library in my area suffered a huge loss of thousands of books in such a disaster. i believe that library director was removed and is now in the Seattle area. imagine that.

[Josh]

using lazyman’s quick google copy+paste to criticize others’ dedicated physical search attempts is amusing.

This seems to be a regular contribution from some contributors in nearly every thread.

As opposed to those who just make up nonsense out of thin air?

Or in the case of this thread, cite Alex Jones as an authority on anything?

He was pretty good at predicting 9/11!

[Bootstrap]

Moderators - perhaps the Holocaust stuff can be moved to a different thread?

1) First of all, 4 million Jews were not murdered and cremated at Auschwitz. Historians estimate that 1 million Jews were murdered at Auschwitz.

You are correct. Prior to 1990, when I did my research, it was listed at 4 million. When the Soviet Union fell, it was lowered to 1 million.

"it was listed" - who listed it that way? Could you please reveal your sources?

The Holocaust Museum, the Jewish Virtual Library, and Yad Vashem all list the number of Jews killed at Auschwitz at around 1 million or 1.1 million. When I look for sources back in time, a lot of those sources also give numbers between 1 and 2 million. See:

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... ersecution
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... /auschwitz
https://www.yadvashem.org/holocaust/abo ... hwitz.html

You are making claims similar to what Foner made in an article in Spotlight in 1993. He leans heavily on Leuchter. I think Foner's claims have been solidly debunked, e.g. in this article:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ho ... -auschwitz

The formatting is terrible on that page, so let me format to make it clear where the boundaries of quotes are. The gist of the following quote is:

1. Foner claimed that people were saying it was irrefutable that 4.1 million people had been gassed in Auschwitz
2. He claimed that anyone who thought it was less than 4.1 million was being labelled anti-semitic
3. In fact, the best estimates of Jewish sources in the early years was much lower - quotes are provided from these sources to demonstrate this
4. Foner doesn't mention where he got the 4.1 million figure from, or who was saying it was irrefutable

If most Jewish historians before the time of Foner were using figures much lower than 4.1 million, who was saying that any number substantially less than 4.1 million would be outrageous anti-Semitism?

How Many People Died at Auschwitz?

Foner's Spotlight article makes the following assertions regarding the number of people killed at the camp:

Like most Americans, since his youth Cole had been instructed in the "irrefutable fact" that homicidal gassings had taken place at Auschwitz. The number of those so executed - also declared irrefutable—was 4.1 million.

Then came the Leuchter Report in 1988. This was followed by a "re-evaluation" of the total deaths at Auschwitz (down to 1.1 million). As a budding historian—and a Jew—Cole was intrigued.

Previous to 1992, anyone who publicly doubted the 4.1 million "gassing" deaths at Auschwitz was labeled an anti-Semite, neo-nazi skinhead (at the very least). Quietly, because of revisionist findings, the official figure was lowered to 1.1 million. No mention of that missing 3 million.

Foner's assertions are simply not true; although it is correct to note that the Polish Communist government did claim that four million people were exterminated at Auschwitz, historians (Feig, Reitlinger, Hilberg, et al.) have never supported that figure. Consider the estimates provided by Buszko at the end of his article on Auschwitz, which appeared in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust:

• Of the 405,000 registered prisoners, 65,000 survived
• Of the 16,000 Soviet POW's, 96 survived
• Various estimates suggest 1.6 million were murdered

Buszko's article, and the above estimates, appeared in the 1990 edition of the Encyclopedia, which clearly puts the lie to Foner's comment that "anyone who publicly doubted the 4.1 million .. " figure "previous to 1992..." was "...labeled an anti-Semite...". Buszko is not only a Jewish historian, but Polish as well.

Leon Poliakov, the author of the well-documented Harvest of Hate, which was, we note, first published in 1956, provides the following information, which clearly demonstrates that Foner's contention, cited above, is an outright lie:

After some thirty months of intense activity, the Auschwitz balance sheet showed close to two million immediate exterminations (this figure can never be fixed exactly), (8) to which one must add the deaths of some 300,000 registered prisoners—Jews for the most part, but not entirely—for whom the gas chamber was only one of any number of ways by which they might have perished. (Poliakov, 202)

(8) In his affidavits, Hoess spoke of two and a half million, 'a figure set officially,' he wrote, under the signature of [Eichmann], in a report to Himmler. This figure has been accepted by several authors, and it appears in the verdict at the trial of the major war criminals. However, there is no reason for accepting without question the statistics attributed to Eichmann, which may err on either side.

Adding the number of victims to those deported from different countries gives a lower figure, although we have little data, for example, on the number of Polish Jews sent to Auschwitz. An approximate figure in the neighborhood of two million seems closer to the truth." (Ibid.)

Feig also provides evidence of the false nature of Foner's comment when she notes that:

Höss testified that the Tesch directors could not help but know of the use for their product because they sold him enough to annihilate two million people.'

According to Snyder, Adolf Eichmann reported to Heinrich Himmler, in 1944, that four million had been killed in the camps, and another million had been shot or killed by mobile units. (Snyder, Louis. Encyclopedia of the Third Reich Marlowe & Co., 1997.) Eichmann's report, which referenced all the camps (most of which were in Nazi-occupied Poland), may have been the source of the Polish Communist government's figures. (Snyder is a Professor of History at the City College and the City University of New York.)

During the war crimes trials, Höss was was asked if it was true that he had no exact numbers because he had been forbidden to compile them, and he agreed. He also agreed that Adolf Eichmann had told him that that more than two million people had been exterminated there. (von Lang, Jochen. ed. Eichmann Interrogated: Transcripts from the Archives of the Israeli Police. NY: Farrar, Straus, & Giroux, 1983, p.120)

The Institut Fuer Zeitgeschichte, Munich, provided the following capsulated paragraph about Auschwitz in a March, 1992, letter of inquiry.

The extermination camp in Birkenau, established in the second half of 1941, was joined to the concentration camp Auschwitz, existing since May 1940. From January 1942 on in five gas chambers and from the end of June 1943 in four additional large gassing-rooms gassings with Zyklon B have been undertaken. Up until November 1944 more than one million Jews and at least 4000 gypsies have been murdered by gas. (IFZ)

While it is admittedly difficult to compile exact figures, since the Nazis did not maintain registration records for those who were to be exterminated immediately upon arrival at Auschwitz, it seems accurate to assert that the number of Jews killed fell somewhere between one and one-point-six million.

Jews were not the only victims of the Auschwitz killing machine - estimates that from 200,000 (Gilbert, Martin. Holocaust Maps and Photographs. NY: Anti-Defamation League, 1992, p. 22, Kenrick, Donald. The Destiny of Europe's Gypsies. NY: Basic Books, 1973, p. 184) to 500,000 (Bubenickova, 190, Yoors, Jan. Crossing, A Journal of Survival and Resistance in World War II. Waveland Press, 1988, p. 34) Gypsies were ultimately destroyed are noted by Laska. Himmler signed the decree sending all of them to Auschwitz in 1942. In addition, an unknown number of homosexuals were sent to Auschwitz and executed.

The Leuchter Report, which Foner alludes to extensively in his Spotlight article, has been thoroughly refuted. For detailed information about the report, see the Leuchter FAQ.

For the sources, see this:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/a- ... z-birkenau

[Bootstrap]

I also studied how 4 million Jews were gassed and cremated at Auschwitz. To find an unimpeachable source, I studied how a gas chamber in the USA works, how it is evacuated and cleaned, and other issues, which is an unimpeachable source. I also studied how long it takes to cremate a body in the USA funeral industry, which is also an unimpeachable source. And cremation doesn't go faster with more bodies, it makes it take longer. I looked at how much fuel and how many crematories would be needed if they ran the crematories 24/7 for the period of 1940 to 1945 to process 4 million deaths. Math is also an unimpeachable source. From this exercise, I was able to understand the correct answer about what really happened.

This sounds a LOT like the Leuchter Report:

https://www.auschwitz.org/en/history/ho ... er-report/

The “Leuchter Report” also questions the capacity—the throughput—of the crematoria. On the basis of data about the procedures used in civilian crematoria, where the corpses are burned one at a time and completely (as opposed to the way they were burned in Auschwitz—several at a time and not completely, with mechanical grinding used to reduce unburned bones to powder), Leuchter states that 714 bodies per week could be burned in one crematorium (II or III), and, “realistically,” 315 per week.

This is contradicted not only by statements from former prisoners and Auschwitz commandant himself. The basic German document on crematorium throughput, prepared by the Central Construction Board in Auschwitz on June 28, 1943, states that the five crematoria in the Auschwitz and Birkenau camps, together, can burn 4,756 corpses in a 24-hour period. This document indicates that the Birkenau crematoria could burn 1.6 million bodies per year.

These facts make it clear that the “Leuchter Report,” allegedly a watershed in understanding Auschwitz, is in fact nothing more than an attempt, concealed beneath an academic-looking smokescreen of graphs, analyses, and calculations, at misinforming readers who have no access to the scholarly literature—or who are looking for precisely the sort of conclusions that Leuchter offers.

To me, statements from former prisoners, statements from the Auschwitz Commandant, and German documents on crematorium throughput at concentration camps seem like rather good original sources. Wouldn't you agree?

[Bootstrap]

using lazyman’s quick google copy+paste to criticize others’ dedicated physical search attempts is amusing.

This seems to be a regular contribution from some contributors in nearly every thread.

Isn't this Lazyman's quick "I don't like those people, I like these other people" instead of responding to the actual facts people are presenting?

Anyone who wants to demonstrate that they are not intellectually lazy should feel free to provide facts, with sources.

[Bootstrap]

Oh good grief. Is Alex Jones into Holocaust denial too? I guess that would figure.

He isn’t. JohnHurt appears to be.

Note that millions of victims of the Holocaust were gentiles such as Polish.

Looks like about 6 million Jews were killed. Looks like about 6 million Gentiles were also killed. Not just in concentration camps.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... ersecution

[JohnHurt]

"it was listed" - who listed it that way? Could you please reveal your sources?

There was a metal plaque at the Auschwitz visitor center that had been there since the Soviet Union days. The USSR plaque was still there in 1990 with 4 million deaths listed, and the Holocaust revisionists made a big deal out of it when the new government lowered the number to 1 million.

So I got the number wrong. My apology.

The Soviet Union also presented lampshades made out of human skin, and soap made out of the fat of dead Jews. Those artifacts are no longer available for DNA testing, for some reason. But if I see a pattern of behavior about how the USSR has reported the Holocaust, then I am the one blamed. So there is no point in discussing it.

This sounds a LOT like the Leuchter Report:

You would need to read an original copy of the Leuchter report to find out if Leuchter actually said what his enemies have published. You are relying on the testimony of his enemies as "proof" that Leuchter is lying.

If you have ever read the original Leuchter report, then I will talk to you about the differences. Otherwise, what is the point? You will just tell me I am wrong, and back it up with the Wiesenthal Center data as your "proof." I have better things to do.

Fred Leuchter's company ran the execution hardware, like the electric chair, gas chambers and lethal injection, for the State of Tennessee and other states. He was hired by Ernst Zundel to provide evidence for Zundel's trial in Canada. Leuchter fully expected to find working gas chambers in Germany. He published his report, and was completely ruined by the media. He has tried to distance himself from this mess ever since. I don't blame him.

To find the truth, you would also need to see the documents from the Construction of Auschwitz to verify if the numbers are correct on how many could be processed in the crematoria per day. I believe the numbers they have provided are wrong. And you still need to determine how much fuel would be required for cremation for that many people, which you won't find anywhere. But you can do the math, ask a funeral director, and make your own projections. It is absurd.

By relying on one source of information for your answer, I believe your methods for finding the truth are unsound.

I would discuss this topic at length with you, but I will get blasted for doing so. If I say 6 million, then I am acceptable. If I say 5.5 million, then I am a denier. That makes it impossible to find the truth. And that is the purpose of the smear word "Holocaust Denial." It cannot be denied.

The International Red Cross kept up with all of the people that died in the camps in WWII. They had their number of deaths which was released in the 1990's, Yad Vashem has their number.

I don't need to defend myself for a position I have never taken. I never gave you a number.

But my point is you have to do your own research, and view both sides impartially to find the truth. Most people cannot do that.

Humans are able to be conditioned, just like Pavlov's dog salivating when the bell was rung. Smear words are very effective, with "Holocaust Denial" being at the very top of the list of smear words. These words totally shut down any intelligent thought or discussion.

In the past, there were smear words for people of different races and different sexual orientations. These smear words were so effective at shutting down intelligent thought that they have been banned from our society, for good reason.

The smear words now are "transphobic, etc. Leviticus 20:13 has been outlawed as a smear word. Matthew 27:25 is now a smear word, and I understand it has shut down the Passion Play in Austria.

Alex Jones is now a smear word. People do not have to listen to him to say he is a liar. They have been conditioned like Pavlov's dog. Most people on this forum believe that Jones is a liar, yet they have never listened to him. That is ridiculous.

The worst are those that mindlessly repeat the Establishment talking points, then throw in a few smear words, so they can "win" the argument and look intelligent to their friends.

You are smarter than that. But if you want to discuss something with me, you will need to have the actual data of what both sides said, and not rely on just one side for your information.

And no, I won't participate in a discussion on the Holocaust. I would get smeared, and what would be the point? All the people from that era are dead. It was interesting in the 1990's but it doesn't matter now.

If you want an interesting story from WWII, look at the story of Georg Elser. He nearly adverted WWII, and was just one man. I don't condone violence, but still a very interesting story.

It would be better that we discuss "Current Events" as that is where this discussion is located.

Like how many "excess deaths" we now have from the COVID shots. That is a number that cannot be denied.

Do you know anyone that has died or been injured from the COVID shot? I only know one person that died from the shots, as we do not usually associate with people that take these kinds of shots. None of my friends or people I know died from the disease.

Did you ever take hydroxychloroquine to beat COVID? We used zinc and tonic water from Walmart, which has quinine. Quinine helps open up the cells so the zinc can enter, which is what hydroxychloroquine does. A good amount of zinc inside the cells shuts down the virus replication. You need to do it early, as soon as you have a symptom.

I learned how to beat COVID from a doctor on the Alex Jones show. I also learned not to take the poison "clot shot" or COVID shot from Alex Jones. This information from Alex Jones has helped me and my family to overcome COVID, with no adverse affects. Being open to information from both sides can have a lot of benefits. But being Pavlov's dog will get you killed.

Take care,

John

[JohnHurt]

Oh good grief. Is Alex Jones into Holocaust denial too? I guess that would figure.

He isn’t. JohnHurt appears to be.

Note that millions of victims of the Holocaust were gentiles such as Polish.

Looks like about 6 million Jews were killed. Looks like about 6 million Gentiles were also killed. Not just in concentration camps.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... ersecution

Compare the numbers of Stalin's Holodomor, or Mao's Cultural Revolution. It is called "democide." it is what governments do.

[temporal1]

using lazyman’s quick google copy+paste to criticize others’ dedicated physical search attempts is amusing.

This seems to be a regular contribution from some contributors in nearly every thread.

Isn't this Lazyman's quick "I don't like those people, I like these other people" instead of responding to the actual facts people are presenting?

Anyone who wants to demonstrate that they are not intellectually lazy should feel free to provide facts, with sources.

Josh and i were commenting on questionable tactics used to attempt to diminish someone’s honest effort to research information, not to suggest anything beyond that. (Josh, correct me if i’m mistaken.)

Are you suggesting a quick google search compares with the effort involved in visiting libraries, studying hard copy sources?
Regardless of results, i see no comparison. In the least, i appreciate John’s effort.

Many historians and other scholars consider it a privilege to have access to “old books” and documents.

i’m not sure usng a picture of an old atlas to make a mockery of someone is a worthwhile exercise.

[Ken]

This seems to be a regular contribution from some contributors in nearly every thread.

Isn't this Lazyman's quick "I don't like those people, I like these other people" instead of responding to the actual facts people are presenting?

Anyone who wants to demonstrate that they are not intellectually lazy should feel free to provide facts, with sources.

Josh and i were commenting on questionable tactics used to attempt to diminish someone’s honest effort to research information, not to suggest anything beyond that.

Are you suggesting a quick google search compares with the effort involved in visiting libraries, studying hard copy sources?
Regardless of results, i see no comparison. In the least, i appreciate the effort.

Many historians and other scholars consider it a privilege to have access to “old books” and documents.

History is a skilled profession like any other. Professional historians have honed their craft, often through decades of experience. They know how to uncover and evaluate original sources. They know how to interview the participants and eye witnesses to events. They now how to put facts into context. They subject their work to professional peer review. And the Holocaust is one of the most carefully studied and documented events in human history.

I'm not a professional historian and neither is John. But just like I know better than to assume that some random person off the street could manage a large dairy farm with no farming experience. Or could conduct brain surgery on a patient with no medical training. Or captain a fishing boat on the Bering Sea with no experience at sea. I also know that some person walking off the street into the Nashville Public Library isn't going to discover some historical truth about the Holocaust that invalidates the work of the legions of professional historians who have spent their their careers working with original sources and witnesses.

I am not the one claiming to have used old library atlases and technical data from funeral home crematoriums to disprove widely accepted facts about the Holocaust. John is. I am making no claims whatsoever about the Holocaust except that I trust the conclusions of legions of professional historians who have devoted their lives to the topic and who have subjected their work to endless public and peer review.