Cultural Separation from Parents

[GaryK]

Y'know, a school could simply say that phones go in lockers and don't come back until the end of the day or when not in class. The way you and Ken describe public schools is as ones where the children are in charge of things, the teachers and administration are helpless to do anything, and of course the reason children HAVE to have cell phones is because... parents demand that they do?

Yet we've already seen that the parents' wishes can be ignored. Why not just ban cell phones at schools? Guns aren't allowed at schools, so why are cell phones?

Parents are a big part of the problem. You have no idea how many parents constantly text their kids all day long. And how many parents expect/demand that their kids have their phones on them at all time so they can track their locations and reach them at a moments notice if there is some event like a school shooting or some such. Cell phones are also how parents reach their kids to coordinate pickup, dropoff, after school activities, sports, remind their kids to do things, etc. Especially when you have complicated families where the kid is at one house on Tuesdays and at the other house on Fridays because the parents are separated, but on this Thursday they have to go go Grandma's house after school instead because mom is working late. It is just endless.

If the school district said that all cell phones go into lockers at the start of school there would be furious pushback by many parents. And the moment a cell phone goes missing you would have parents demanding that the school pay for that $1000 cell phone that might or might not actually be missing. So I promise you that my HS doesn't want to be responsible for cataloging and storing 1800 student cell phones on a daily basis. The kids can keep the cell phones on them or in their backpacks but just aren't allowed to take them out during class time.

My school does have a no phone in class policy. First warning the phone needs to get put away. Second warning it gets put into a padded ziplock pouch that sits there on the desk next to the student but they can't take it out. If they do it is a discipline referral where they go down and talk to the security officer and fill out a form. After that the phone gets confiscated and the parents get called and have to come pick up the student's cell phone in person which annoys some of them and delights others who are happy to leave their kid's phone in "cell phone jail" at the school for a few days before going to pick it up.

Kids are stealthy. The have them on their laps or hidden behind a purse or backpack or under a book or sheet of paper.

Interesting! Cell phone ban is unworkable because it might make the parents furious. But an explicit policy that parents shall not be informed of their child's gender confusion is fine even if it makes the parents furious....
It's a weird world.

Yep, it is a weird world.

[temporal1]

There cannot be expectations of anyone saying,
“Yes, i engage in cultural separation of children+teens from their parents; (i’ve decided) it’s part of their growing up process, and it’s fun. It’s more fun than sticking to basic curricula, which is sorely needed by students, but gets boring to teach year after year.”
Even when that’s what they’re saying and doing.

[RZehr]

Righteousness is not some nebulous concept that we simply must abandon. If anyone so desires to learn, the Bible is available.

Our church school has this rule:
“Students are not allowed to bring cameras, phones, digital tablets, or firearms to school without both a specific reason, and prior permission from both their teacher and parents. Items are to be kept in teachers possession.”

[Ken]

Righteousness is not some nebulous concept that we simply must abandon. If anyone so desires to learn, the Bible is available.

Righteousness is defined as being true to your beliefs. But we don't all share the same beliefs. What is righteous to a conservative Mennonite is different from what is righteous to a Muslim or Hasidic Jew or Jehovah's Witness or Buddhist or Mormon or Quaker. Or, for that matter someone who's beliefs are not religious but based on other principles like equality.

Our church school has this rule:
“Students are not allowed to bring cameras, phones, digital tablets, or firearms to school without both a specific reason, and prior permission from both their teacher and parents. Items are to be kept in teachers possession.”

Yep. Small private schools can do their own thing however they want.

But I would expect that big private schools with hundreds of students are more or less like public schools when it comes to things like cell phones. And, if anything, from what I have heard from teachers I know who teach at fancy private schools, the parents are even much more demanding and intrusive and entitled.

[Nomad]

I thought you conservatives argue that sex and gender are explicitly biological. Which would mean that some student using a different name changed absolutely nothing at all. Any more than say a girl who chose to wear boy's tennis shoes to school or a pair of jeans from the boy's side of the store changed nothing at all either.

On one hand you are correct. On the other hand, remember, righteousness needs to be the guiding principle. And pretending to be the opposite sex, is not righteous.

"righteousness" is an utterly vague and meaningless term in this context. People on both sides of this issue all feel that they are equally righteous. And they are, in fact, all correct in that they are all being righteous to their own core set of beliefs. The only actual guide that we have for public institutions is the Constitution and system of laws that have been passed under its authority. Which emphasis principles such as equality for all rather than application some ancient verse from Genesis that is only very tangential to the topic at hand.

In any event, I tend to think all this hand-wringing by older adults, many if not most of whom don't even have children in schools, misses a lot of the point. Today's students don't obsesses about things like bathrooms. They really don't. Bathrooms have stalls and honestly student bathrooms at schools are kind of icky anyway. I will walk a long way out of my way to find a private and clean staff bathroom rather than walk into the student one right outside my classroom.

Likeways, things like names and pronouns are pretty trivial in the scheme of a student's life. In a HS setting, teachers really don't use student names all that much. Maybe when you call on students but that's not a daily thing. Pronouns get almost no use other then perhaps when two teachers are discussing a student over email or something.

About 95% of what students care about is what their peers think, not some older middle-aged science teacher thinks. They live their lives and identity on social media, in the halls at lunch and before/after school. It is their peers that validate them not what some teacher says or doesn't say. If you are a trans kid, your profile in Instagram or Discord is probably 100-times more relevant to your identity than what name a teacher uses when taking attendance.

And in any event the world of gender is not remotely binary in the way that people here seem to think it is. It is really a very wide and diverse spectrum.

For example, here at a big public high school in the Pacific Northwest as everywhere the vast majority of students are more or less gender normative so just ordinary boys and girls. But of those who are not there is really a lot of variety.

For girls I commonly get a certain type of tomboyish girl who dress in the local fashion of jeans, slouchy big hoodies, and wear old converse sneakers or boots (often unisex Doc Martin style boots). With either long hair or short hair, little or no makeup, and compared to the flashy cheerleader and girly girl types they are pretty unisex. Some are just insecure wallflower types who are just trying not to be noticed. Maybe overweight or not conventionally attractive. Some are just rugged outdoorsy types who are ordinary straight girls but are uninterested in girly stuff. One girl I have like that wants to be a welder. A few are probably gay. The school year is new so I have no idea at this point but eventually I'll see some holding hands and figure it out. They don't normally announce it. And possibly one or two might be trans or trans curious in some fashion. I have no idea unless they tell me and usually they don't. Many of them go by gender neutral nicknames whether they are gay or straight or trans or not trans. Alexandras go by Alex. Calista goes by Cal. And many already have gender neutral names like Taylor, Skyler, Angel, Chris, Jaiden, Sam, or Kai. Sometimes I even get pretty girly girl cheerleader types who announce they are gay and hang out with their girlfriends. Maybe they are, maybe they are just sick of high school boys and that is one way to put up a barrier. Maybe both. But there are the occasional girls who dress like say Taylor Swift and announce they have no use for boys.

As for boys. Most are just ordinary boys. I get the occasional openly gay boy. I have one now, a black kid who has bright pink hair and is just flamboyantly gay in mannerisms, manner of speaking and so forth. Not trans, gay. And I know from experience that no doubt a few others are gay but just not open about it, at least to teachers. But don't present as anything more than ordinary boys in school. Out of 150 students I have no boys who appear trans and who are using girls names.

So which kids do I call home about to inform parents because they are not being gender-confirmative in some way? Or do I just teach biology and treat all my students the same, give them respect as individuals, and make sure that the class is a comfortable and safe place for all (i.e. no one is getting bullied or picked on or harassed).

A lot of this discussion is utterly naïve in that people seem to believe that HS teachers and counselors have all this influence over these kids and what their identities are. We do not. Most of these kids I can barely motivate to put in a slight extra effort to raise their grade from a B to an A or pay slightly more attention in class. Or to show up to class with a charged Chromebook and writing utensil. I have absolutely zero influence over what they wear in class as long as it is within the school dress code (which is unisex) or how they self-identify in terms of gender and sexuality. There are, indeed, a lot of teachers who try to be super supportive and inclusive of all their students whether they are Black, White, Hispanic, Muslim, gay, or trans. That is actually part of the job to be welcoming and supportive of all your students so they can succeed in the class. But I don't ever see any who are promoting any sort of agenda to influence kids to be what they are not. And I honestly doubt that would even be possible. My kids personalities were pretty well formed by the time they were 4 or 5 years old. The notion that a school teacher or counselor can influence a straight HS student to be gay or a ordinary student to be trans is not something that I have seen or think happens. Teachers may be more supportive than parents in some cases. That is true. But I don't think they are turning the student into something they are not.

What I think this is really about is that most schools these days are just letting kids be who they are and a certain group of conservatives are upset that schools (and society generally) are not rigidly enforcing gender conformity like used to be they case 70 years ago in the 1950s when we lived in a completely different world. And they are uncomfortable with that.

Even though I dont agree with everything you said here about righteousness and Genesis. And I find your language a bit argumentative, I do appreciate your perspective here actually. I never really took the time to think of it from a teachers perspective and how frustrating it would be when parents start blaming all their children's issues on the public school system. The parents should be involved and communicating with their own children rather than getting upset at the teachers and expecting the public school system to do the parenting for them.

I never took time to think of how unfair (and yet convenient) it is for parents to cast blame at the schools for their lack of parenting...so thanks for those thoughts. I would maybe add that while you pointed out the "hand-wringing" of the right over gender. The right also points at the left about their "hand-wringing" of playing the racism card every chance they get as well. I chose neither right or left...thats the difference between someone who looks to the Constitution, Laws and government as their rudder for life and the Christian who looks to the Scripture as their foremost guide. I don't claim to be righteous but nor do I see righteousness as a "meaningless term"...the righteousness I seek is the righteousness of Christ and the instruction He has given us via His Word to follow. We will be opposed to each other if we find ourselves on opposite sides of these opposing views. Of course I'm biased since I grew up in a Christian home and because of this every now and then I find my own self-righteousness creeps in...so it helps to have someone shake us out of this by hearing some real life perspectives of those who grew up in a non-Christian setting. So thanks for pointing out the flaw of parents who tend to point the finger at teachers instead of taking responsibility for their own children's upbringing. Ill take that as advice for my own parenting in the future.

[temporal1]

Yep. Small private schools can do their own thing however they want.

But I would expect that big private schools with hundreds of students are more or less like public schools when it comes to things like cell phones. And, if anything, from what I have heard from teachers I know who teach at fancy private schools, the parents are even much more demanding and intrusive and entitled.

You “going on a tear” flailing out to disparage others, relevant or not, isn’t constructive.

On a tear (rhymes with air) means to be on a spree, to be in a flurry of sustained activity, to engage in a burst of activity, to be on a winning streak, to be on a journey of drunken activity.
grammarist

Members here are thoughtful and experienced, they know where they’re coming from, and the journey began many decades back.
Do as you will. Don’t presume you’re winning anything. “We deceive ourselves.” 1 John 1:8

Personally, i favor the idea of public schools, i believe they served many well for many years. There are good teachers.
i’m too much of a realist to believe (any human endeavor) will just do well, no matter what.

The system has been in need of a big overhaul for years. Politics aside, this is generally understood by all.

Short of that, thankfully, many choose home school and private school. No guarantees. Options are good.

[Ken]

Even though I dont agree with everything you said here about righteousness and Genesis. And I find your language a bit argumentative, I do appreciate your perspective here actually. I never really took the time to think of it from a teachers perspective and how frustrating it would be when parents start blaming all their children's issues on the public school system. The parents should be involved and communicating with their own children rather than getting upset at the teachers and expecting the public school system to do the parenting for them.

You would be surprised at how many parents expect schools to do their job for them.

For example, last year I had a mother who would email me several times a week with endless questions about her son's grade. Always more or less the same thing. "Why did Kyle get a zero for this assignment and why does it show as missing in the gradebook?" These days all school grading is electronic and parents have instant access to the grade book 24/7.

And I would have to constantly explain: (1) I give the students an assignment and show them how to do it, (2) they complete the assignment and turn it in, (3) I grade the assignment and enter their grade in the gradebook, (4) if the student didn't do the assignment they get a zero and it shows up as a missing assignment.

So if you want to know why Kyle has a zero for yesterday's assignment. It is because he didn't turn it in. If you want to know WHY he didn't turn it in you really need to ask him. I have 150 students across 5 class periods. I have absolutely no idea why one particular student didn't get their work done. And next week I'm going to have the same exact conversation with the same parent about some other assignment that this kid blew off. Part of school is learning how to be responsible for your own action and decisions. Especially high school. For many of these kids the next stop is adult life and the working world.

I spend more time responding to that sort of query than you can imagine. Talk to you child. Find out why they are blowing off their homework. I'm not a one-on-one tutor and high school students need to learn how to be responsible for their own classwork. And they also need to learn how to ask me questions and seek help if they need it. We have lots of resources.

I never took time to think of how unfair (and yet convenient) it is for parents to cast blame at the schools for their lack of parenting...so thanks for those thoughts. I would maybe add that while you pointed out the "hand-wringing" of the right over gender. The right also points at the left about their "hand-wringing" of playing the racism card every chance they get as well. I chose neither right or left...thats the difference between someone who looks to the Constitution, Laws and government as their rudder for life and the Christian who looks to the Scripture as their foremost guide. I don't claim to be righteous but nor do I see righteousness as a "meaningless term"...the righteousness I seek is the righteousness of Christ and the instruction He has given us via His Word to follow. We will be opposed to each other if we find ourselves on opposite sides of these opposing views. Of course I'm biased since I grew up in a Christian home and because of this every now and then I find my own self-righteousness creeps in...so it helps to have someone shake us out of this by hearing some real life perspectives of those who grew up in a non-Christian setting. So thanks for pointing out the flaw of parents who tend to point the finger at teachers instead of taking responsibility for their own children's upbringing. Ill take that as advice for my own parenting in the future.

It goes both ways. The left thinks that right wing parents are teaching their kids prejudice and bias towards others. the "build the wall" stuff, the racism, and so forth. And they want the schools to focus on things like diversity and inclusion.

The right (or some aspects of it) think the schools aren't teaching enough moral values and want to see things like the 10 Commandments on classroom walls, and prayer in schools

Both of those things can be a distraction from biology, chemistry, algebra, and English. Especially when they turn into social war political battles between adults (it is always between adults). I honestly think BOTH sides take things too far. The lefty types who are obsessed with infiltrating social justice issues into the schools. And the conservative types who insist on infiltrating traditional Christian teachings into the schools. Both can be a distraction and cause unnecessary division and conflict.

Where I think a lot of Christians go wrong is in expecting schools to stray into religious teaching. Schools are diverse, society is diverse, teachers are diverse. You really DO NOT WANT classroom teachers to provide religious instruction to your children. That is not the time and place for it. Maybe the teacher is a Mormon. Maybe they are a liberal Jew. Maybe they are conservative Muslim. Maybe they are an atheist. No matter who they are you definitely do not want them interpreting scripture and imparting religious lessons in school. Because the result will most likely not be what you want. You don't want your child coming home with some religious spin that is not your own. Like, for example, we need to pray for our troops in Iraq because they are doing "God's Work" by killing Muslim infidels or some such.

And yes, there is some mainstream cultural religion that seeps into the schools. Even here in the liberal Pacific Northwest my daughter's HS band always has a winter (Christmas) concert in mid-December where they perform various traditional Christmas carols. And they do the same performances at the town square during the Christmas tree lighting and so forth. And I suppose if someone from another faith complained it might be a bit of an issue. But that has never happened yet so the band teacher just keeps on doing it and everyone likes it.

[Ken]

Yep. Small private schools can do their own thing however they want.

But I would expect that big private schools with hundreds of students are more or less like public schools when it comes to things like cell phones. And, if anything, from what I have heard from teachers I know who teach at fancy private schools, the parents are even much more demanding and intrusive and entitled.

You “going on a tear” flailing out to disparage others, relevant or not, isn’t constructive.

Here is a recent article about privileged private schools by a fairly conservative author. It is about the most elite prep schools but applies to a lesser degree to many others.

PRIVATE SCHOOLS HAVE BECOME TRULY OBSCENE: Elite schools breed entitlement, entrench inequality—and then pretend to be engines of social change. By Caitlin Flanagan https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... le/618078/

And here is one about the prep school attended by the Clinton and Obama children in Washington DC

Parents Gone Wild: High Drama Inside D.C.’s Most Elite Private School: At Sidwell Friends, the high school of Chelsea Clinton and the Obama children, college counselors find themselves besieged by Ivy-obsessed families. By Adam Harris https://www.theatlantic.com/education/a ... es/591124/

[HondurasKeiser]

I would suggest that the number of transgender youth who have received medical interventions without their parents consent or knowledge is infinitesimally small.

StrawMan.jpg

Nobody in this thread has mentioned medical interventions. The thread is about culture.

Then maybe y'all could define what "promoting transgenderism" means because Ken and I were accused of trying to change the topic by talking about how we refer to students by names and nicknames that aren't on their birth certificate because the real topic of this thread is how awful it is when schools call their students by names that aren't on their birth certificate.

There is a categorical difference between teachers using nicknames or shortened names or middle names for their students and teachers, in service to a brave new worldview, helping students transition to a different gender without their parents’ knowledge or consent.

Whilst the content of the actions may be similar to a point, it’s the intention and desired ends that make them so radically different. One is done without need for secrecy or deceit…the other, well, the other needs laws and lawsuits and policies of confidentiality to keep parents in the dark.

I’ve always known you to be a smart fellow, SZD. I trust you can see the difference.

[temporal1]

Yep. Small private schools can do their own thing however they want.

But I would expect that big private schools with hundreds of students are more or less like public schools when it comes to things like cell phones. And, if anything, from what I have heard from teachers I know who teach at fancy private schools, the parents are even much more demanding and intrusive and entitled.

You “going on a tear” flailing out to disparage others, relevant or not, isn’t constructive.

Here is a recent article about privileged private schools by a fairly conservative author. It is about the most elite prep schools but applies to a lesser degree to many others.

PRIVATE SCHOOLS HAVE BECOME TRULY OBSCENE: Elite schools breed entitlement, entrench inequality—and then pretend to be engines of social change. By Caitlin Flanagan https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... le/618078/

And here is one about the prep school attended by the Clinton and Obama children in Washington DC

Parents Gone Wild: High Drama Inside D.C.’s Most Elite Private School: At Sidwell Friends, the high school of Chelsea Clinton and the Obama children, college counselors find themselves besieged by Ivy-obsessed families. By Adam Harris https://www.theatlantic.com/education/a ... es/591124/

shovels, spades ..

Over years, MD+MN, i don’t recall any forum reference to elite private schools. But, go for it.