Perception of (Remote) Tech Workers as Seekers?

[Esdras]

Electrician, i got a job through someone in my church. What wasnt smooth about yours?

Couple of things. One factor is probably being too old (I attempted to transition at 32). Other factor was simply picking the wrong thing to go into - I started working for someone at the new church I was attending at the time in a cement related field, but they basically only specialised on doing footers, and weren't really interested in training anyone outside of their family how to learn to do more beyond unskilled labour. So I spent a few years not learning much other than how to become proficient in carrying 2x6s around or pushing wheelbarrows. On the bright side, after many years of praying and hoping, my nephew joined an Anabaptist church when he was 20 and ended up working for the same people, but at the age of 17, so he learned more valuable skills and eventually switched to working for a different family and got the opportunity to buy out their business with sell financing, and that guy really helped him get established. So now he is in his early 20s but has a viable cement business.

I took a break and went to Australia and worked on a steel framing crew in similar circumstances and likewise didn't learn much except how to hold a rattlegun all day to screw C channels together.

If I had it to over again, I would have talked to a lot more people and found a field to become proficient in, and ensured I worked for someone who would have wanted to see me succeed as more than an unskilled labourer. At the time, I was trying to learn how to practice humility better and be content with a lowly occupation and lowly pay. Unfortunately, that does not translate well 12 years later in being able to provide for a family effectively - thankfully, I live under a government with a generous welfare state and belong to a church that doesn't object to members accepting assistance from the government. But it is not realistic to try to support a family on $15 an hour without government assistance.

I would have also avoided certain types of family businesses who are very "clannish" and don't really want anyone outside of their own family to succeed. After 12 years in Anabaptist circles, it is easy for me to identify such people, but back then I had no idea what I was doing.

Electrical work is a field that interests me, however, the pathway to being able to be an electrician is simply far too long (9+ years in my state before I can work independently, with a long period of apprenticeship where I wouldn't really earn enough to support a family and would be the first to get laid off if we have a downturn), and by then I'll be too old to have many good years left to earn and save for retirement. Unfortunately you can only reinvent yourself so many times, and by your mid-40s, it's not a good time to move into a new kind of physical occupation, as you just can't keep up with younger people with more energy who can work 2 or 3 hours away from home, plenty of overtime, and don't need to worry about having kids at home who should see their dad at supper more than once or twice per week.

Overall, whilst this may sound cynical, I have warned seekers to Anabaptist circles to be very, very wary of joining an Anabaptist church if they are middle aged and they will be expected to change professions, and to perhaps focus on a church where they don't have to do that. I have nothing but regret about the direction my own career has taken. I thought it was important to be humble and to work for a much lower salary than I was used to, but it turns out those are not things that are particularly valued in Anabaptist circles - and perhaps they shouldn't be.

Thank you for sharing this, friend! Just had my 39th birthday and have a wife who is a homemaker with four, soon to be five children, all quite young. While I have contemplated pivoting to focus on Low Voltage Unregulated licensure, it would be with the intention of pursuing Home Automation in order to complement the 20+ years of IT experience I already have.

Given my skin condition, blue collar, hands on work might prove to be difficult as anything that creates stress, sweat or pressure can create very itchy hives.

God willing there wouldn’t be pressure to change my profession if we went to look around in TN or GA and found an Anabaptist community we could live in the outskirts of.

[Anthony]

Just to add my 2 cents, I dont think this career “problem” is exclusive to seekers, I know a couple mennonites who were born into the church. One chose to do teaching our local mennonite schools, and now hes looking for a house after marriage at 25 and hes forced to rent. Teaching is very underpaid and i assume he didnt plan his career much, now hes reeling at mortgage costs, probably unable to buy a house in the foreseeable future. About half of the youth in my church sort of imagine its the 1950s where they can just work hard, buy a house, and support 7 kids with no career planning involved. They are working in the bottom rung of carpenter crews/stay on the home farm doing unskilled work well into their 20s. They dont seem particularly worried but I know they are just going to end up as permanent house renters under a wealthy mennonite landlord.

Some mennonites are genuinely just extremely poor and have like 5 kids and subsist on ~25/hour.

As a seeker I feel I am not as naive as them and I make conscious moves to build valuable skills, and plan to shift into ownership as quickly as possible. Many of my mennonite friends have no interest in such things. Some even give up profitable businesses to go back into farming ( this astounds me ).


Its not all dire if you are from “the world” , if any seeker is reading this post

[JohnH]

Thank you for sharing this, friend! Just had my 39th birthday and have a wife who is a homemaker with four, soon to be five children, all quite young.

That's wonderful to hear. I have 3 children myself. All quite young too...

While I have contemplated pivoting to focus on Low Voltage Unregulated licensure, it would be with the intention of pursuing Home Automation in order to complement the 20+ years of IT experience I already have.

Yeah, low voltage is mostly unlicenced (for now). It is a field I suspect most plain folks won't have a lot of connections to. Electrician work does seem quite common. I would imagine you would be need to be near a major metro area to find enough work in this field.

Given my skin condition, blue collar, hands on work might prove to be difficult as anything that creates stress, sweat or pressure can create very itchy hives.

One consideration I never made as a new convert was to consider what your body is able to handle, and also accessing medical care to take care of yourself. I instead had an attitude of "well, I should work hard and be willing to work hard", which worked for a while, but eventually I stacked up so many medical problems that I was very, very fortunate to be self employed or else I would have guaranteed lost my job. Something to consider is that, in the plain world, there is much less generosity with sick time / time off. Some people will be kind about it, but others will simply view someone with health problems as lazy or a liability and simply get rid of them. My wife's cousin's mother is dealing with this - she is in her late 60s, started to have arthritis, and couldn't move as quickly as she used to in the bulk food store she worked at. The ultra-conservative Mennonites (from a different church than hers) who run the place had no qualms at all about simply firing her for that. (She is widowed, and I work with my wife's cousin, so we are trying to find any work we can for her she can do for us

God willing there wouldn’t be pressure to change my profession if we went to look around in TN or GA and found an Anabaptist community we could live in the outskirts of.

I recommend looking for a church community that is understanding that a seeker can't immediately change their profession and focuses on things other than that. I would also argue that a church community that is healthy and is a good place for a seeker needs to do these things:

- Be willing to help a seeker assess a good profession for them if they expect a seeker to change professions.
- If the seeker is required to change professions as part of membership, and the family experiences a big drop in income due to that, help them with lifestyle adjustments and other things so they can survive.
- If a seeker is required to forego medical insurance or change professions to a job that doesn't offer health benefits and does not pay lucratively, the church community needs to help meet their medical needs. This could be through a church mutual aid plan (my church does this), a church medical needs fund, or perhaps the church is OK (like mine is) with accepting state aid.
- Take a hard look at how widows, particularly widows of seekers or widows who were seekers, are taken care of.
- If the church expects foregoing Social Security, 401(k)s, life insurance, etc., then a serious discussion should be had with church leadership how a seeker who won't own a valuable farm or business upon retirement age will support themselves in old age, including taking care of a widow if the husband passes first.

There are a few of my own group's churches in TN and a few in Georgia as well. If you like, I could put you in touch with some of them.

[JohnH]

Just to add my 2 cents, I dont think this career “problem” is exclusive to seekers, I know a couple mennonites who were born into the church. One chose to do teaching our local mennonite schools, and now hes looking for a house after marriage at 25 and hes forced to rent. Teaching is very underpaid and i assume he didnt plan his career much, now hes reeling at mortgage costs, probably unable to buy a house in the foreseeable future.

This is a problem for those who are living in "high cost" areas, like eastern PA or Homes County, Ohio. It is possible in the Holmes Co. area to buy a cheap house in town, still, but most people think they need a few acres of land. I like having more land myself since it opens more opportunities to help others and is better for children than living in town.

About half of the youth in my church sort of imagine its the 1950s where they can just work hard, buy a house, and support 7 kids with no career planning involved.

Interesting. In my church group young men start working at 14 or 16 and usually are scraping every penny they can to buy some kind of house by 18 or 20, which they then fix up and rent out, and then move in to when they get married.

They are working in the bottom rung of carpenter crews/stay on the home farm doing unskilled work well into their 20s. They dont seem particularly worried but I know they are just going to end up as permanent house renters under a wealthy mennonite landlord.

That is also an interesting trend. I guess I am an un-wealthy landlord, seemingly providing housing to young men who have hit their 30s, young women in their 40s, and whose parents were poor/ended up disabled or one of them was a seeker. It does seem we have a responsibility to help take care of each other.

As a seeker I feel I am not as naive as them and I make conscious moves to build valuable skills, and plan to shift into ownership as quickly as possible. Many of my mennonite friends have no interest in such things. Some even give up profitable businesses to go back into farming ( this astounds me ).

I think part of this here is that they feel confident someone in their extended family group and extended church group will be able to find them some kind of job, so they just rely on that. For example, someone will always find a place for you to rent / live in, often below market. (I guess I am one of those people doing that now, renting out a place at a rate that doesn't even cover the mortgage.) One of the aforementioned people lives in a camper out in my driveway/parking area.

Its not all dire if you are from “the world” , if any seeker is reading this post

Yes particularly with some wise decisions, and I guess this is obvious but it is much easier to join when you are younger vs older. I would also advise seekers to go for the most traditional / conservative church they can stand, provided it has good spiritual life and has people in it are legitimately following Jesus and seeking salvation. Doing so will just make your life a lot simpler and easier 10 years down the road.

[ken_sylvania]

Just to add my 2 cents, I dont think this career “problem” is exclusive to seekers, I know a couple mennonites who were born into the church. One chose to do teaching our local mennonite schools, and now hes looking for a house after marriage at 25 and hes forced to rent. Teaching is very underpaid and i assume he didnt plan his career much, now hes reeling at mortgage costs, probably unable to buy a house in the foreseeable future.

Did he tell you that this was unexpected, or express regret about his time spent teaching?

About half of the youth in my church sort of imagine its the 1950s where they can just work hard, buy a house, and support 7 kids with no career planning involved. They are working in the bottom rung of carpenter crews/stay on the home farm doing unskilled work well into their 20s. They dont seem particularly worried but I know they are just going to end up as permanent house renters under a wealthy mennonite landlord.

As someone who "stayed on the home farm doing unskilled work well into my 20's" (to use your description) I would say they might not be as dumb and disadvantaged as you might think they are. In fact, I'm trying to imagine what kind of farming all these people are doing that has enough "unskilled work" to keep the young people busy until their mid-20s. If you're not a farmer I'll give you a pass on calling farming unskilled. You wouldn't have a way to know.

There could be worse things than permanently renting from a wealthy Mennonite landlord. Depending on the community the rent might not be much more than the cost of taxes and maintenance.

Some mennonites are genuinely just extremely poor and have like 5 kids and subsist on ~25/hour.

As a seeker I feel I am not as naive as them and I make conscious moves to build valuable skills, and plan to shift into ownership as quickly as possible. Many of my mennonite friends have no interest in such things. Some even give up profitable businesses to go back into farming ( this astounds me ).

So you're saying they are prioritizing something other than gaining wealth. Have you spoken to any of them about what their goals in life might be? Have you asked those who are choosing farming what their reasons are?

How long have you been a part of this community? If you've been a member for ten years or more then you certainly have had time to see how this is working out for them. If you've only been there for a couple years, I would chuckle somewhat at your conclusion that you are better informed than the young adults who have grown up in the community. Yes, you likely do have a lot more experience than them in some areas, and in fact very likely have a better sense of what you need to do to be financially successful, but I wouldn't be so sure that they don't know what's what in their own lives.

[Esdras]

Thank you for sharing this, friend! Just had my 39th birthday and have a wife who is a homemaker with four, soon to be five children, all quite young.

That's wonderful to hear. I have 3 children myself. All quite young too...

While I have contemplated pivoting to focus on Low Voltage Unregulated licensure, it would be with the intention of pursuing Home Automation in order to complement the 20+ years of IT experience I already have.

Yeah, low voltage is mostly unlicenced (for now). It is a field I suspect most plain folks won't have a lot of connections to. Electrician work does seem quite common. I would imagine you would be need to be near a major metro area to find enough work in this field.

Given my skin condition, blue collar, hands on work might prove to be difficult as anything that creates stress, sweat or pressure can create very itchy hives.

One consideration I never made as a new convert was to consider what your body is able to handle, and also accessing medical care to take care of yourself. I instead had an attitude of "well, I should work hard and be willing to work hard", which worked for a while, but eventually I stacked up so many medical problems that I was very, very fortunate to be self employed or else I would have guaranteed lost my job. Something to consider is that, in the plain world, there is much less generosity with sick time / time off. Some people will be kind about it, but others will simply view someone with health problems as lazy or a liability and simply get rid of them. My wife's cousin's mother is dealing with this - she is in her late 60s, started to have arthritis, and couldn't move as quickly as she used to in the bulk food store she worked at. The ultra-conservative Mennonites (from a different church than hers) who run the place had no qualms at all about simply firing her for that. (She is widowed, and I work with my wife's cousin, so we are trying to find any work we can for her she can do for us

God willing there wouldn’t be pressure to change my profession if we went to look around in TN or GA and found an Anabaptist community we could live in the outskirts of.

I recommend looking for a church community that is understanding that a seeker can't immediately change their profession and focuses on things other than that. I would also argue that a church community that is healthy and is a good place for a seeker needs to do these things:

- Be willing to help a seeker assess a good profession for them if they expect a seeker to change professions.
- If the seeker is required to change professions as part of membership, and the family experiences a big drop in income due to that, help them with lifestyle adjustments and other things so they can survive.
- If a seeker is required to forego medical insurance or change professions to a job that doesn't offer health benefits and does not pay lucratively, the church community needs to help meet their medical needs. This could be through a church mutual aid plan (my church does this), a church medical needs fund, or perhaps the church is OK (like mine is) with accepting state aid.
- Take a hard look at how widows, particularly widows of seekers or widows who were seekers, are taken care of.
- If the church expects foregoing Social Security, 401(k)s, life insurance, etc., then a serious discussion should be had with church leadership how a seeker who won't own a valuable farm or business upon retirement age will support themselves in old age, including taking care of a widow if the husband passes first.

There are a few of my own group's churches in TN and a few in Georgia as well. If you like, I could put you in touch with some of them.

This is such an interesting and valuable perspective, friend, and it’s a great reminder to me that we all struggle with certain sins in certain situations, both individually and corporately.

One thing that is very important to our family is the notion of mutual aid. We see it plainly taught in the Gospels and in Acts 2 and Acts 4 of course, along with even 2 Corinthians 8 which speaks of sharing your abundance so that there is an equality and that no one lacks. In addition to giving to those who ask of us, our family doesn’t even feel quite right about charging Christian brothers and sisters anything for our services or charity or generosity; if we can help, we help. We try (and often fail, but nonetheless, a righteous man falls seven times and gets up eight) to not let our right hand know what our left hand is doing and trust that anything we part with for the Lord’s sake or the gospel’s will be akin to storing up treasure for ourselves in Heaven where our hearts are.

Protestant Reformed Churches are very tidy and run much like a business in our limited experience and it has disheartened us greatly. Incorporating as a non-profit often incentivizes less charity in the United States as you can be accused of preferentially enriching private individuals as opposed to providing a public benefit. It is our understanding in our limited research that certain groups such as Freemasons (which we would never have anything to do with) as well as Anabaptist groups that have been providing for their own for 50+ years can legally exempt themselves from certain programs such as Social Security. To your point, this only makes sense if a community is willing to practice what the Apostle James regarded as a pure and undefiled religion, or what the Lord Jesus Christ simply regarded as being done unto Himself as it is done to “the least of these.”

From an outsider’s perspective it is a little difficult to hear that Anabaptist communities struggle in this area, but during a very brief visit with the Bruderhof in Tennessee we also had the opportunity to observe some things that we totally didn’t expect.

[Anthony]

Just to add my 2 cents, I dont think this career “problem” is exclusive to seekers, I know a couple mennonites who were born into the church. One chose to do teaching our local mennonite schools, and now hes looking for a house after marriage at 25 and hes forced to rent. Teaching is very underpaid and i assume he didnt plan his career much, now hes reeling at mortgage costs, probably unable to buy a house in the foreseeable future.

Did he tell you that this was unexpected, or express regret about his time spent teaching?

About half of the youth in my church sort of imagine its the 1950s where they can just work hard, buy a house, and support 7 kids with no career planning involved. They are working in the bottom rung of carpenter crews/stay on the home farm doing unskilled work well into their 20s. They dont seem particularly worried but I know they are just going to end up as permanent house renters under a wealthy mennonite landlord.

As someone who "stayed on the home farm doing unskilled work well into my 20's" (to use your description) I would say they might not be as dumb and disadvantaged as you might think they are. In fact, I'm trying to imagine what kind of farming all these people are doing that has enough "unskilled work" to keep the young people busy until their mid-20s. If you're not a farmer I'll give you a pass on calling farming unskilled. You wouldn't have a way to know.

There could be worse things than permanently renting from a wealthy Mennonite landlord. Depending on the community the rent might not be much more than the cost of taxes and maintenance.

Some mennonites are genuinely just extremely poor and have like 5 kids and subsist on ~25/hour.

As a seeker I feel I am not as naive as them and I make conscious moves to build valuable skills, and plan to shift into ownership as quickly as possible. Many of my mennonite friends have no interest in such things. Some even give up profitable businesses to go back into farming ( this astounds me ).

So you're saying they are prioritizing something other than gaining wealth. Have you spoken to any of them about what their goals in life might be? Have you asked those who are choosing farming what their reasons are?

How long have you been a part of this community? If you've been a member for ten years or more then you certainly have had time to see how this is working out for them. If you've only been there for a couple years, I would chuckle somewhat at your conclusion that you are better informed than the young adults who have grown up in the community. Yes, you likely do have a lot more experience than them in some areas, and in fact very likely have a better sense of what you need to do to be financially successful, but I wouldn't be so sure that they don't know what's what in their own lives.

I assume you were raised mennonite, as a seeker these financial situations mennonites find themselves under are jarring and personally the biggest stumbling block ive faced. Especially as someone used to a higher quality of life afforded by my college degree and higher paying tech job.

“Was it unexpected or did he experience regret”

It was unexpected, housing prices shot up after COVID and he was also looking for housing with 5 acres minimum, he refuses to live in town.

“They are not unskilled staying on the farm”

I have no experience farming, but my understanding is that driving tractor, hauling crops and animals, and doing occasional repairs on a farm he doesnt own is not the path to financial prosperity in 2026. Everyone at church constantly talks about their farm, so I am more or less aware of the average farmer’s life at this point.

“What are the life goals of people who go into farming”

Essentially to be able to work many hours with the family, something unable to do when running a business. This is a fine tradeoff, but they are taking a big financial toll by doing this.

“How long have you been in the community, you might not be that informed”

3 years. Im not sure what insight the mennonites in my community might posses, but they are clearly not as “worldly wise” as you imagine. Many of them have poor modern financial sensibilities, putting most of their excess money into a savings account instead of investing, choosing farming careers willy nilly with reasons like “well prices fluctaute, the commodity im selling will just raise in price at some point and ill pay off my debts “. There is also many young marriages, I ask them how they will provide for the many kids they plan to have, the response is “i dunno, ill figure it out”. Other times when business is slow, they dont advertise or make any plan to work on the business, they just chalk it up to the weather and just accept the low customer flow.

On some level all of this stuff shows how authentically seperated conservative mennonites are, its almost inspiring to me how some of my church members live like this. This is very different from how secular america ( my background ) views finances, business, and life planning in general.

[Anthony]

Responding to Esdras,

For what its worth, I dont have the same experience as JohnH at all, my community is certainly not run like a business. There is a strong Protestant work ethic where doing work = spirtiually good, but actively planning on how to build wealth is something almost none of my church members think about or do. The mutual aid is also extremely active and no one goes bankrupt or falls into financial hardship as a result.

[JohnH]

Responding to Esdras,

For what its worth, I dont have the same experience as JohnH at all, my community is certainly not run like a business. There is a strong Protestant work ethic where doing work = spirtiually good, but actively planning on how to build wealth is something almost none of my church members think about or do. The mutual aid is also extremely active and no one goes bankrupt or falls into financial hardship as a result.

One difference might be that you started out in a more conservative setting. I started out in a barely-conservative setting where people were very business minded, but that came at the expense that seekers were viewed essentially the same as many people view migrant labour: something to be used for the cheapest price possible, taken advantage of, and certainly not ever assisted into owning their own business or being promoted.

In more-conservative settings, this seems to be much less of a problem.

Mutual aid has worked for a long time, but talk to any deacon or mutual aid administrator and the present-day cost of medical care is pretty much killing all of them. For an example, the amount of medical care my family has consumed over the past 5 years, plus my wife's cousin, is north of $2 million. (You can add an extra $50,000 or so for my son's recent ER visit that was overnight/exceeded 24 hours.) Mutual aid is simply having a difficult time stretching that far.

I still believe in the premise of mutual aid, but there is the reality that modern-day medical care is very expensive unless one negotiates like an insurance company, or qualifies for programs like Medicaid, and then it magically becomes cheap or free.

[JohnH]

One thing that is very important to our family is the notion of mutual aid. We see it plainly taught in the Gospels and in Acts 2 and Acts 4 of course, along with even 2 Corinthians 8 which speaks of sharing your abundance so that there is an equality and that no one lacks. In addition to giving to those who ask of us, our family doesn’t even feel quite right about charging Christian brothers and sisters anything for our services or charity or generosity; if we can help, we help. We try (and often fail, but nonetheless, a righteous man falls seven times and gets up eight) to not let our right hand know what our left hand is doing and trust that anything we part with for the Lord’s sake or the gospel’s will be akin to storing up treasure for ourselves in Heaven where our hearts are.

A challenge many seekers find who want to participate in mutual aid is that less-conservative churches don't really practice it anymore; they just rely on Social Security and Medicare for older people (meaning younger people can't be Social Security exempt anymore, despite the fact many of the older people often were when they were younger).

In more-conservative churches, a different challenge is presented: mutual aid is often restricted to members, so if one decides to rely on it before one is a member, you will have to trust the mercy of your congregation to be willing to help a non-members' needs. This might, however, be a positive spiritual experience for both the congregation and for the seekers.

Protestant Reformed Churches are very tidy and run much like a business in our limited experience and it has disheartened us greatly. Incorporating as a non-profit often incentivizes less charity in the United States as you can be accused of preferentially enriching private individuals as opposed to providing a public benefit. It is our understanding in our limited research that certain groups such as Freemasons (which we would never have anything to do with) as well as Anabaptist groups that have been providing for their own for 50+ years can legally exempt themselves from certain programs such as Social Security. To your point, this only makes sense if a community is willing to practice what the Apostle James regarded as a pure and undefiled religion, or what the Lord Jesus Christ simply regarded as being done unto Himself as it is done to “the least of these.”

To give an idea of how exempt churches work, they generally believe participating in any insurance at all is not to be done, sometimes even eschewing liability insurance for automobiles. (This is, obviously, a moot point for horse and buggy groups.) Every possible need is first met by the congregation, and then via letters/collections sent out to other congregations. Retirement is generally expected to be met by one's children plus savings accumulated in a farm or business.

If one joins such a church in their 40s and has no farm or business, it should be obvious you aren't really going to be able to accumulate enough to meaningfully benefit from this kind of system, although I maintain it is best to just trust the Lord, and that a good way to evaluate a congregation is how well it handles situations like these.

From an outsider’s perspective it is a little difficult to hear that Anabaptist communities struggle in this area, but during a very brief visit with the Bruderhof in Tennessee we also had the opportunity to observe some things that we totally didn’t expect.

The Bruderhof are different from most other Anabaptists since they practice a community of goods. They have some theological beliefs that would mean I couldn't really ever be a member there, and they don't seem to practice the headcovering anymore either, leaving it up to personal conviction.