Ernie’s charts usually list 7 Ethnic steams of Anabaptism:
1. Swiss Brethren
2. Dutch Mennonites / Russian Mennonites
3. Hutterites
4. Apostolic Christians
5. Bruderhof
6. Brethren
7. Amish
I am trying to understand why Romanian Pentecostals and Russian Baptists are not in the above; they lack nothing in common the above do not also lack.
Going from there out, there are more groups of Christians who adhere to fundamentally Anabaptist principles (nonresistance, the veiling, modesty, brotherhood accountability, restricting divorce, and so forth). For example, there is a group in the Middle East that does not have any kind of group name but does consist of a half dozen congregations of 50-100 member size. They have very little context with Anabaptists yet very similar practice.
I don’t think these should be lumped as “intentionalists” either. Romanian Pentecostals are essentially ethnic and multigenerational. The Middle Eastern group is not purely ethnic yet, but probably will be in a few decades.
The 7 Ethnic Streams
Re: The 7 Ethnic Streams
These seven have a common origin in the early years of the reformation and are of Dutch, Swiss or Germanic origin. In all my reading on Anabaptism, I have never come across these names that you mention. I would be interested in reading more about these Middle East groups. I would guess the Romanian Pentecostals and the Russian Baptists are very conservative; more so than many Anabaptists.
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Re: The 7 Ethnic Streams
My exposure to Romanian Pentecostals was in Australia where they were becoming more worldly. Eg men starting to wear fashionable beards, veilings getting smaller and basically turning into headbands, fancier musical arrangements, watching DVDs on laptops in the home. Nowadays there are conservative and more liberal divisions amongst them.Hats Off wrote:These seven have a common origin in the early years of the reformation and are of Dutch, Swiss or Germanic origin. In all my reading on Anabaptism, I have never come across these names that you mention. I would be interested in reading more about these Middle East groups. I would guess the Romanian Pentecostals and the Russian Baptists are very conservative; more so than many Anabaptists.
My exposure to Russian Baptists (in the USA) and Ukrainian Baptists and Ukrainian Pentecostals is the same. (They all have Anabaptist theology. It seems the times of persecution resulted in adopting nonresistance. I have no idea why they all practice the veiling.)
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Re: The 7 Ethnic Streams
Maybe a fine point, but Hutterites are Austrian (but still sort of German, I suppose), from the Tyrol.
Regarding Russian Baptists - there was a good bit of fellowship and cross-over between the new Mennonites in the colonies and their neighboring Baptist colony members, starting in the 1800's, and especially by mid century. Later, after the fall of the Russian Republic, many Mennonites became Baptists, simply because the Baptist church was 'legal' during that period, and the following years. I have communicated with Russian Baptists who know that they are from Mennonite background. Back in the 80's or so (90's?), when many Ukrainians were leaving for other places in Europe and in the Americas, a large group of Ukrainian "Pentecostals" affiliated with the North American Mennonite Brethren conference. (I think that as their numbers grew even more, they may have later formed a separate group, but I don't know for sure.)
Regarding Russian Baptists - there was a good bit of fellowship and cross-over between the new Mennonites in the colonies and their neighboring Baptist colony members, starting in the 1800's, and especially by mid century. Later, after the fall of the Russian Republic, many Mennonites became Baptists, simply because the Baptist church was 'legal' during that period, and the following years. I have communicated with Russian Baptists who know that they are from Mennonite background. Back in the 80's or so (90's?), when many Ukrainians were leaving for other places in Europe and in the Americas, a large group of Ukrainian "Pentecostals" affiliated with the North American Mennonite Brethren conference. (I think that as their numbers grew even more, they may have later formed a separate group, but I don't know for sure.)
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Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
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Re: The 7 Ethnic Streams
Okay, I can’t share a lot of details, but the Middle Eastern group has no Anabaptist ancestry at all, nor “cross contamination”, and is in fact all composed of an entirely different ethnic group.
So with that said: remnant Christianity is not the sole domain of Western European Anabaptists. It bothers me a bit to see charts that limit it to such.
So with that said: remnant Christianity is not the sole domain of Western European Anabaptists. It bothers me a bit to see charts that limit it to such.
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Re: The 7 Ethnic Streams
Ernie wrote:1. Swiss Brethren
2. Dutch Mennonites / Russian Mennonites
3. Hutterites
4. Apostolic Christians
5. Bruderhof
6. Brethren
7. Amish
Well, the first three go back to the Reformation anyway, and all are from west/central Europe.Hats Off wrote:These seven have a common origin in the early years of the reformation and are of Dutch, Swiss or Germanic origin.
4. The Apostolic Christian Church started in 1832 from Reformed and ex-Mennonites.
5. The Bruderhof was founded in 1920 and discovered the Hutterites in 1930.
6. The Brethren originated in 1708 out of Reformed and Lutheran Pietism.
7. There's a theory that the Amish are not a schism from the Swiss Brethren but a separate group of Oberlanders from the late 17th century who aborted an attempt to merge with the SB.
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Re: The 7 Ethnic Streams
The seven groups come from Cory Anderson.Josh wrote:Okay, I can’t share a lot of details, but the Middle Eastern group has no Anabaptist ancestry at all, nor “cross contamination”, and is in fact all composed of an entirely different ethnic group.
So with that said: remnant Christianity is not the sole domain of Western European Anabaptists. It bothers me a bit to see charts that limit it to such.
He identifies folks who trace their biological or spiritual lineage back to self-identified Anabaptists. "Intentionalists" on my chart are congregations who self identify as Anabaptist, but don't hold to the the culture or parameters of any of the ethnic groups.
Yes, there are lots of groups who are "Kingdom Christian", "Biblically Conservative" or "God Fearing Christians", who do not self-identify as Anabaptist and do not fit the "Anabaptist intentionalist" category.
In my view, Anabaptist is a sub-category under "Kingdom Christian". Kingdom Christian is a sub-category under "Biblically Conservative", and "Biblically Conservative" is a sub category under "God Fearing Christians".
Note: Biblically conservative as used above does not relate to "conservative" in the Western Evangelical context.
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Re: The 7 Ethnic Streams
The Amish also have diverse origins. They should not be seen as a single ethnic group.
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Re: The 7 Ethnic Streams
Josh wrote:My exposure to Romanian Pentecostals was in Australia where they were becoming more worldly. Eg men starting to wear fashionable beards, veilings getting smaller and basically turning into headbands, fancier musical arrangements, watching DVDs on laptops in the home. Nowadays there are conservative and more liberal divisions amongst them.Hats Off wrote:These seven have a common origin in the early years of the reformation and are of Dutch, Swiss or Germanic origin. In all my reading on Anabaptism, I have never come across these names that you mention. I would be interested in reading more about these Middle East groups. I would guess the Romanian Pentecostals and the Russian Baptists are very conservative; more so than many Anabaptists.
My exposure to Russian Baptists (in the USA) and Ukrainian Baptists and Ukrainian Pentecostals is the same. (They all have Anabaptist theology. It seems the times of persecution resulted in adopting nonresistance. I have no idea why they all practice the veiling.)
I have seen that Jason Kauffman from Gympie visits a Romanian Pentecostal church on the Gold Coast. There was a funeral, but the members told me that they’ve visited a few times. I guess the walls are more relaxed out in Oz? As for relaxing their dress, I think it depends on the church. Some wear headcovering only at the church but pants and hair down during the week. Others wear their scarves full time.
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Re: The 7 Ethnic Streams
Yes. Each of the seven streams could be separated into many more sub categories.Bill Rushby wrote:The Amish also have diverse origins. They should not be seen as a single ethnic group.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"