US Supreme Court in 2023

[Josh]

I think there is only a small amount of public discrimination in our culture today. None if it is legal.

Just to cite one example, Black kids are more likely to be prosecuted for the same offense compared to White kids, get longer sentences for the same offense compared to White kids, are more likely to be tried and sentenced as an adult for the same offense than White kids, are more likely to suspended from school for the same offense than White kids. And sometimes get arrested and jailed for crimes that don't even exist: https://www.propublica.org/article/blac ... esnt-exist

Is that illegal? If so, why is it still happening in 2023?

Can you explain to us how public discrimination will somehow fix any of the above?

[Ken]

Can you explain to us how public discrimination will somehow fix any of the above?

That isn't the point that I'm making. I'm not advocating for public discrimination. I don't particularly support affirmative action and I think it is a side show that benefits very few and often a privileged few.

The point I am making is that there is still a tremendous amount of public discrimination in our society on the basis of both race and wealth. The Supreme Court is not addressing any of it because it is de facto discrimination, not de jure discrimination. And we mostly just shrug about it. We are very far from a society in which public discrimination does not exist.

[Josh]

It’s your opinion that discrimination is “de facto”. Have you considered maybe other factors cause disparate outcomes?

For example, if more people commit violent crimes, then they’re more likely to end up arrested.

[Marylander]

We are very far from a society in which public discrimination does not exist.

I cannot say I have ever witnessed discrimination. Well, maybe once when I heard someone ridiculing the Swartzentruber Amish and I am aware that they are not treated kindly in Ohio.

The NYT had an article about yet another black man who was shot by the police for stealing a few dollars worth of fruit. His mom's words, "It's racial bias." Sigh. He stole and was shot.

I will have to chew on this statement cuz my family is color blind.

[Ken]

It’s your opinion that discrimination is “de facto”. Have you considered maybe other factors cause disparate outcomes?

For example, if more people commit violent crimes, then they’re more likely to end up arrested.

Studies do control for other factors and still find that, for example, Black youth who commit the same exact identical offence are consistently treated more harshly than White youth. And this happens at every level of the criminal justice system. From the initial decision of the police officers to arrest and charge them, to the decisions of prosecutors to offer plea favorable plea deals, to the length of sentences imposed, to much of the sentence is served before they are released on parole.

We could do the same exact thing for education and take just about any metro area in the country. And we will find that the resources that schools have in traditionally White areas are markedly better than those in predominantly Black areas. There are exceptions, but on average that is true. And when one digs deep and asks why that is the case one can often find a legacy of overt racial discrimination that continues to be perpetrated to this day through decisions made in the past such as how school district lines are drawn, how development patterns are subsidized, and how money is allocated.

[Ken]

We are very far from a society in which public discrimination does not exist.

I cannot say I have ever witnessed discrimination. Well, maybe once when I heard someone ridiculing the Swartzentruber Amish and I am aware that they are not treated kindly in Ohio.

The NYT had an article about yet another black man who was shot by the police for stealing a few dollars worth of fruit. His mom's words, "It's racial bias." Sigh. He stole and was shot.

I will have to chew on this statement cuz my family is color blind.

Where do you live? Ohio?

In Ohio, the US Sentencing Commission found that Black men receive sentences that are, on average, 19% longer than White men for the same crime and circumstances: https://eji.org/news/disparate-sentence ... injustice/

In other words, if you commit a crime in Ohio, the color of your skin is solely responsible for 1/5th of your sentence.

If that is not discrimination, tell us what is. That seems more serious and inequitable to me than a small number of applicants getting a few extra points boost in the admissions algorithm at a few highly-selective universities.

[Josh]

Where do you live? Ohio?

In Ohio, the US Sentencing Commission found that Black men receive sentences that are, on average, 19% longer than White men for the same crime and circumstances: https://eji.org/news/disparate-sentence ... injustice/

In other words, if you commit a crime in Ohio, the color of your skin is solely responsible for 1/5th of your sentence.

Here's an even better idea: don't commit crimes in Ohio.

See how easy this is?

If that is not discrimination, tell us what is. That seems more serious and inequitable to me than a small number of applicants getting a few extra points boost in the admissions algorithm at a few highly-selective universities.

It is simply an allegation and certainly not uncontested facts that "the colour of your skin is solely responsible for 1/5th of your sentence". Sentencing is almost entirely by the book and by statute.

The example you gave (which is from an institution that claims there is bias in sentencing, so is hardly objective) gave examples of two women.

In the first example, she repaid over 100% of the money she stole, as restitution. She got probation, since she paid it back.

In the second example, she repaid 12% of what she stole. She received 1 1/2 years' sentence.

I'm not sure what the "disparity" is here. If you steal money, you should expect to get sentenced for it. If you want a lighter sentence, perhaps you should have a plan to pay it back in full quickly if you do get caught.

[Ken]

I'm not sure what the "disparity" is here. If you steal money, you should expect to get sentenced for it. If you want a lighter sentence, perhaps you should have a plan to pay it back in full quickly if you do get caught.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And it's not just serious crime.

For example in Texas, a White kid who gets caught with a little bit of pot is much more likely to be released with a warning, or released to his parents with no charges filed. A Black kid caught with the same amount of pot under identical circumstances? Much more likely to be arrested, charged, and convicted for an offense that his White classmate gets a pass on. And because of the way the criminal justice system works, he is essentially railroaded into a plea deal and conviction because the DA can throw enormous charges with long prison sentences at him if he decides to challenge the charge and fight it.

This one single inequity has cascading effects that can be longstanding. The Black kid with an arrest and conviction on his record is now less likely to get a good job, get into college, qualify for student loans and financial aid, and so forth. Life consequences that his White counterpart does not suffer at all.

You may not see the inequity in that. But most people actually do. Is the Supreme Court doing anything about it? Nope. Because that sort of racial discrimination or racial disparity seems to not interest them.

[Josh]

For example in Texas, a White kid who gets caught with a little bit of pot is much more likely to be released with a warning, or released to his parents with no charges filed. A Black kid caught with the same amount of pot under identical circumstances? Much more likely to be arrested, charged, and convicted for an offense that his White classmate gets a pass on. And because of the way the criminal justice system works, he is essentially railroaded into a plea deal and conviction because the DA can throw enormous charges with long prison sentences at him if he decides to challenge the charge and fight it.

Solution: don't carry illegal drugs with you; don't associate with people who use illegal drugs; don't use illegal drugs.

See how easy that is?

This one single inequity has cascading effects that can be longstanding. The Black kid with an arrest and conviction on his record is now less likely to get a good job, get into college, qualify for student loans and financial aid, and so forth. Life consequences that his White counterpart does not suffer at all.

Ken, sometimes I wonder what universe you inhabit. Where does a charge for minor possession affect getting into college? Or qualifying for student loans? Or even getting a job, outside of something that requires a security clearance for the federal government?

But the solution is really simple: don't use illegal drugs. Don't commit crimes.

Your assertion above, by the way, is not even factual, at least here in Ohio. The last time I sat in a courtroom I saw multiple defendants who had charges for illegal tint, minor possession of marijuana, speeding, and no seat belt, each of which attracts about a $100 fine. The defendants went and paid their $400 fine and that was that. Do you consider this to be "discrimination"? (Nonetheless, it seems reasonable to ask people, including people who are black, not to speed, to wear their seat belt, to not carry illegal drugs in their car, and to not tint their car windows beyond the legal limit.)

[Ken]

Ken, sometimes I wonder what universe you inhabit. Where does a charge for minor possession affect getting into college? Or qualifying for student loans? Or even getting a job, outside of something that requires a security clearance for the federal government?

I live in the same world as you. A world in which even one single minor drug conviction can affect your ability to get financial aid which puts college out of reach for anyone from a poor family.

I looked it up and it turns out that the Biden Administration did cut back some of the most severe financial aid consequences for students with a drug conviction. But they exist nonetheless. Read about it if you don't believe me: https://www.bankrate.com/loans/student- ... ent-loans/

And as for Ohio? I can't speak to how drug offenses are treated in Ohio because I've never lived there. But I have lived in Texas and seen the racial disparities first-hand happen to kids that I knew and taught. There is no secret about it. Black and White kids use drugs at nearly identical rates. But Black kids are something like 5-times more likely to be arrested and convicted for drug offenses than White kids. Why is that? Two reasons. First, law enforcement targets Black communities for drug enforcement much more heavily than it does White communities. And second, when Black kids are caught they are consistently dealt with more harshly at every step in the criminal justice system from the decision to arrest to decisions about charging, to decisions about sentencing.