haithabu wrote:The argument about who is more reprehensible I believe is based on flawed moral reasoning.
I agree. It always winds up dwelling on the sins of "the other side".
haithabu wrote:I am approaching the question from a systems point of view: I look at the dynamics of what is going on rather than the personalities or ideologies and ask, where is the greatest social danger?
Here's where I see great moral danger:
James Murdoch, CEO, Fox wrote:These events remind us all why vigilance against hate and bigotry is an eternal obligation — a necessary discipline for the preservation of our way of life and our ideals. The presence of hate in our society was appallingly laid bare as we watched swastikas brandished on the streets of Charlottesville and acts of brutal terrorism and violence perpetrated by a racist mob. I can’t even believe I have to write this: standing up to Nazis is essential; there are no good Nazis. Or Klansmen, or terrorists. Democrats, Republicans, and others must all agree on this, and it compromises nothing for them to do so.
Look at this from a systems perspective. If you want to stop people from fighting back, stopping the initial attack is a good idea. If you want to convince people that they do not need to fight back with violence, telling them how the government will respond to keep them safe is important. If you focus your attention on the people who fought back, and don't face up to people planning similar rallies in the future, I don't think that is good systems thinking.
haithabu wrote:I believe that the probability of white supremacism taking hold in the US is not non-zero but it is definitely below the threshold of measurement. The real danger lies in the opposite direction from where everyone is looking and the moral panic which I and others are being invited to share, rather than a solution is actually at risk of becoming part of the problem.
I think the probability of future rallies like this is really quite high. Right now, I think there is a very real possibility that America might become more like 1920s Germany, with rival private militias roaming the streets, openly carrying weapons, and regular violence. So far, the right wing militias are much better organized and trained. Now we are seeing the rise of left wing militias. May God have mercy on us.
But I think we have to oppose both groups.
It's time for the politicians to put aside their differences and take a joint stand on this. That might need to be led by Congress, if Donald Trump doesn't do so.
haithabu wrote:I "map" the situation in terms of threat, and on that map the neo-Nazis and the Antifa are not on opposing sides but are on the same side. They're both working actively to foster increasing polarization.
If you read the Antifa thread, you'll see that I agree with this. And I think I've said so, clearly.
Here's one way to reduce polarization: Express empathy for the people who are threatened and vulnerable. Focus on what is good for the people of Charlottesville - and other towns where these kinds of rallies have been held and will be held in the future.
haithabu wrote:There are some who would call that an attempt to create moral equivalency, but that's because they thinking in beauty contest terms where the question of equivalency is important. To me it's not.
It's not to me either. Each side is responsible for their own behavior.
But that should make it easier to clearly denounce Nazis and Klansmen who stage rallies to intimidate people, not harder. And any plan to handle future rallies is going to have to look at them closely.
haithabu wrote:Boot and others, I hope that helps you understand where I am coming from. It's nice to be understood. Based on the FB reaction to my ideas, I imagine I know what Cassandra felt like when she was devoured by snakes for her trouble. Metaphorical internet snakes in my case.
I'm sorry that it feels that way. I have to say, I'm feeling a little baffled. I generally think of you as a clear thinker who has a solid take on biblical teaching and many moral questions.
Suppose I am a black Jewish student at the University of Charlottesville. Please explain what you are trying to say to me. I really don't understand. I'm baffled. I suspect that's what you are seeing on Facebook.
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?