Debt forgiveness

[Robert]

I think this has been a really good and interesting topic. Thanks to the OP for starting it.

I still have not voted. Still can not find a simple answer.

Western Culture has debt forgiveness. It is originally based on Christian principles, but not reliant on it to work. It is now baked into society. Not all societies/governments do it. I think they should, but there still has to be some consequences for negligence, while compassion/understanding for extreme situations.

Things like GoFundMe are a great tool for society to help people with things like this without requiring government intervention. The actions of the churches posted here are more great examples of how societies can address this. Amish barn raising can teach us a lot.

One last point, debt forgiveness is a subset of forgiveness. We are called to be people of forgiveness. Forgiveness is a process. It is not always easy, and often takes both sides to work towards it.

[temporal1]

Robert,
i agree, except, i avoid GFM, which does not hesitate to employ lib political bias, they exclusively judge and act in final ways, without opp for defense, or warning.

there are other fund raising platforms, often less expensive, with better terms, with more proceeds going to the intended recipient. churches and banks often offer accounts, or other means, for donations.

so far in the poll, only 4 of 16 voted Yes. the rest see it as more complex.

[appleman2006]

[ I recently had a conversation about this with a retired man who mocked the presidential candidates who support no tuition college or student debt relief. I asked how he paid for his college education and he was quick to say he earned it and paid as he went with summer jobs. When I suggested higher education could be subsidized to the point that a student could pay the remainder with summer jobs, he didn't have much to say.

You make a really good point here and it is actually one of the reasons why I have a real problem with forgiving student debt in particular. Student tuition is already very heavily substituted. Far to heavily IMO in too many cases. Again I have no problem with the concept in the case of a particular field needing more skills. If we need more teachers for example pick the best possible candidates by aptitude and help pay for their training. But we do not need to pay to give everyone a liberal arts degree. I would love to have one. I am serious, but I think it would be irresponsible to expect other people to pay for it. I have little sympathy for those that have gone into student debt and studied in a field that they cannot now find a job to pay back that debt.

[appleman2006]

On the broader subject of debt and repayment of debt I may not be as hard nosed as it appears to some of you.

In the past our company has forgiven debt, sometimes large amounts. Sometimes through the legal bankruptcy route and sometimes otherwise where people have simply not paid and we have let it go. And I have done it personally as well. And no, we are not one of those companies that enforce a 1.5 percent or 2 percent per month service charge on delinquent accounts. With today's interest rates I do see that as usury. I am simply saying all of this to show that it is a situation that we live and work with everyday and putting Jesus' teachings into shoe leather is something that is much easier sometimes as a concept than to work out in real life. But I applaud those who really do try and do that for themselves. I have less time for those that think they have exactly figured out how others should do it even though they may not have had to deal with many personal experiences themselves of having to forgive debt.
Blessings to each of you as you work out this thing in your own life.

[Josh]

You make a really good point here and it is actually one of the reasons why I have a real problem with forgiving student debt in particular. Student tuition is already very heavily substituted. Far to heavily IMO in too many cases. Again I have no problem with the concept in the case of a particular field needing more skills. If we need more teachers for example pick the best possible candidates by aptitude and help pay for their training. Burt we do not need to pay to give everyone a liberal arts degree. I would love to have one. I am serious but i think it would be irresponsible to expect other people to pay for it. I have little sympathy for those that have gone into student debt and studied in a field that they cannot now find a job to pay back that debt.

This criticism needs to extend to the people who encouraged the student to go into this field in the first place, accepted their money, and then did nothing to help them find a job that can pay it back.

In Australia, student loans are repaid via payroll deductions. If a student never gets a decent job, the school only gets paid back partially what the student loan was. Thus, schools are motivated to make sure the give students an education that will get them a good paying job.

[silentreader]

[ I recently had a conversation about this with a retired man who mocked the presidential candidates who support no tuition college or student debt relief. I asked how he paid for his college education and he was quick to say he earned it and paid as he went with summer jobs. When I suggested higher education could be subsidized to the point that a student could pay the remainder with summer jobs, he didn't have much to say.

You make a really good point here and it is actually one of the reasons why I have a real problem with forgiving student debt in particular. Student tuition is already very heavily substituted. Far to heavily IMO in too many cases. Again I have no problem with the concept in the case of a particular field needing more skills. If we need more teachers for example pick the best possible candidates by aptitude and help pay for their training. Burt we do not need to pay to give everyone a liberal arts degree. I would love to have one. I am serious but i think it would be irresponsible to expect other people to pay for it. I have little sympathy for those that have gone into student debt and studied in a field that they cannot now find a job to pay back that debt.

subsidized?

[appleman2006]

[ I recently had a conversation about this with a retired man who mocked the presidential candidates who support no tuition college or student debt relief. I asked how he paid for his college education and he was quick to say he earned it and paid as he went with summer jobs. When I suggested higher education could be subsidized to the point that a student could pay the remainder with summer jobs, he didn't have much to say.

You make a really good point here and it is actually one of the reasons why I have a real problem with forgiving student debt in particular. Student tuition is already very heavily substituted. Far to heavily IMO in too many cases. Again I have no problem with the concept in the case of a particular field needing more skills. If we need more teachers for example pick the best possible candidates by aptitude and help pay for their training. Burt we do not need to pay to give everyone a liberal arts degree. I would love to have one. I am serious but i think it would be irresponsible to expect other people to pay for it. I have little sympathy for those that have gone into student debt and studied in a field that they cannot now find a job to pay back that debt.

subsidized?

Yes sorry.

Thanks for the catch.

[appleman2006]

You make a really good point here and it is actually one of the reasons why I have a real problem with forgiving student debt in particular. Student tuition is already very heavily substituted. Far to heavily IMO in too many cases. Again I have no problem with the concept in the case of a particular field needing more skills. If we need more teachers for example pick the best possible candidates by aptitude and help pay for their training. Burt we do not need to pay to give everyone a liberal arts degree. I would love to have one. I am serious but i think it would be irresponsible to expect other people to pay for it. I have little sympathy for those that have gone into student debt and studied in a field that they cannot now find a job to pay back that debt.

This criticism needs to extend to the people who encouraged the student to go into this field in the first place, accepted their money, and then did nothing to help them find a job that can pay it back.

In Australia, student loans are repaid via payroll deductions. If a student never gets a decent job, the school only gets paid back partially what the student loan was. Thus, schools are motivated to make sure the give students an education that will get them a good paying job.

Sounds like a good system. Especially since tuition is subsidized so heavily. It would be good if schools were held accountable for over pushing certain courses. But I also think the government holds some of the accountability here as well as the individual.

[temporal1]

This thread was notably prior to the 2020 pandemic madness, economic chaos.
i’m not sure if life will ever appear anything like it ever was in history -
after Congress has normalized thinking about committing TRILLIONS+TRILLIONS of taxpayer dollars to “EVERYTHING.”

My tiny brain senses that ^^ can’t be done without causing all manner chaos.

Floodgates are swung wide open on the former growing “free stuff” mindset.
It is so hard to resist.

April 2020 / “stimulus payments”
viewtopic.php?t=2854

The pastor at the Eastern Mennonite church I attend announced we must return the stimulus checks. Other conferences doing the same?

gov spending has gone so far beyond the initial beginning. so quickly.

from what i’ve read, “1 TRILLION” is such a massive number, few if any can grasp it.
if this is true, i can’t think the current situation is anything short of a disaster - possibly greater than the actual pandemic.

worse, i sense it’s all rooted in partisan politics, not in authentic attempt to problem solve.
“the end justifies the means” politicians appear to be willing to sacrifice all to “win.”

appleman addressed concerns about politicians unwilling to “get real” about economics BEFORE 2020.

no. i do not believe the brainiacs in Congress know what they’re doing. i do not believe they are smart enough to wrap their heads around what 1 TRILLION dollars is. i believe they are out for votes and their personal careers.

i hope i’m 100% wrong. and all will be well.

[temporal1]

2022 Quite surprising: Changes are in progress

How to File for Student Loan Bankruptcy
https://www.investopedia.com/how-to-fil ... cy-4772237

What Is Student Loan Bankruptcy?
You may have heard that student loans cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.
That statement oversimplifies the truth.

You actually can get student loans discharged in some cases, but the bar is higher, and the process is more burdensome than it is for other types of debt.

Filing for bankruptcy to discharge student loans may get easier, though, if a recently introduced bipartisan bill is passed.
The Fresh Start Through Bankruptcy Act of 2021, by Senators Dick Durbin (D.-Ill.) and John Cornyn (R-Texas),
would restore the ability of borrowers with federal student loans to seek a bankruptcy discharge for their loans 10 years after the first loan payment comes due.

It would also make it possible to retain the existing undue hardship discharge option for private student loans and for federal student loans that have been due for fewer than 10 years. .. ..

NOT A SLAM-DUNK.
These may be steps forward to pressure ACCOUNTABILITY from BOTH lenders AND student borrowers.
(i really dislike Durbin-IL, i know nothing of Cornyn-TX) but, i’ve questioned for years the lack of wisdom in guaranteed loans, basically, with no way out. To repeat, not ok for lenders or students!

The thing with bankruptcy is, it’s RELIEF, with PENALTY. It’s a trade-off. Thus, less likely to be abused.
There are a few types of bankruptcy, with different purposes/rules. Some wealthy people use bankruptcies as part of their business plans! i know little of these. Ordinarily, it’s a painful choice, a last resort. Which is ok.

My husband died in May 2007, the world wide bank failures were evident by the end of 2007. The following years were pretty awful for me, i was on the brink of bankruptcy for .. ?? maybe 2+ years. i was in close contact with a local experienced bankruptcy attorney, i had the paperwork at my fingertips .. i was so close. i kept fighting it. My house finally sold. i managed to squeak by. i lost a lot, but i got out of it without filing.

i learned a lot in the process. bankruptcy is more complicated than one might guess. it’s a process, and it varies by state.
it allows a new start, but it’s not without penalty. (this prevents abuse.)

thus, my opinion is, the problems of guaranteed student loans might be greatly reduced by allowng them to be discharged in bankruptcy - IF ALL ELSE FAILS. it’s not penalty-free for lenders or student borrowers. example: personal credit is damaged for 10 years! that’s a penalty. it’s not prison or death. it’s a penalty.

i don’t confuse government policies with Jesus’ model of personal mercy, grace, forgiveness, which are important tenets of faith.
i have forgiven debts, and i sometimes have been forgiven - not by government!

i’m interested in where these new policies may lead. not all student loans should be discharged in bankruptcy!
some should. if not, if there is no way out, it’s tantamount to indentured servants. imho