Farewell, MCUSA

[Ernie]

Reading through this thread I see two sentiments, anabaptism is prone to schism and this issue is important enough to justify a parting of ways. I haven't been following this closely but why shouldn't this be viewed as a success. Those who objected did so with a lot of patience and have done their part, now they are free to leave in good conscience.

Anabaptism started as a schism. Its founding premise was freedom of conscience. One foundational tenant is that the church should be kept pure and free from sin. Anabaptists understood sin to keep the same definition, no matter which century one lived in.
Seems to me that if someone doesn't want to call sin, what the early Anabaptists/Mennonites commonly called sin, and if someone doesn't think that Anabaptists/Mennonites should schism over some members no longer calling something sin, that such folks should choose a different name than Anabaptist/Mennonite.

As I read it, a substantial minority agree more or less that same sex relations are sin, and they have born that witness as far as they can in that church. Now they should leave.

We are thinking alike. I was more addressing those who think schisms are wrong and lump all schisms into the same category. I think there are righteous schisms and sinful schisms.

[Szdfan]

Jeremy:
The advocates for LGBTQ inclusion were not outsiders who seduced the church, they were largely people born and raised within the Mennonite Church. (It turns out that Mennonites also have queer children). MCUSA didn’t just belong to the theological conservatives, it also belonged to the progressives and I think they had every right to advocate for change.

i’m not the best one to pose this question, but, i have the impression, most on this forum agree to something-like,
“God has no grandchildren.”

Your words here confuse that idea.
i realize, there is confusion on that idea. It’s normal to very much WANT our children+grandchildren to be convicted believers.
And, it’s not uncommon for people to reverse or turn away from their beliefs, based on what they witness in their families.

But, if we believe God has no grandchildren, then, our babies+children are outsiders to be brought into the fold.

Here you seem to be describing the opposite. You describe inherited rights.

We should hope the church belongs to Jesus Christ.

I personally know some of those who advocated for LGBTQ inclusion. I attended college with some of the founders / early organizers of Pink Menno. For you to describe them as a “man came into your home, welcomed and appreciated, but over time he seduced your wife and won the hearts of your children” is offensive and arrogant. These are people I know and have relationships with. I know some of the costs they paid as they pleaded with the denomination to recognize their humanity and not just dehumanize them as a sin or a theological problem.

The 2015 MCUSA convention in Kansas City where this conflict finally boiled over was one of the most gut-wrenching, painful, traumatic and toxic events that I ever attended. I watched Pink Menno advocates sob between delegate sessions. Where were you?

Who do you think you are that you can dismiss people just like that?

[Soloist]

I personally know some of those who advocated for LGBTQ inclusion. I attended college with some of the founders / early organizers of Pink Menno. For you to describe them as a “man came into your home, welcomed and appreciated, but over time he seduced your wife and won the hearts of your children” is offensive and arrogant. These are people I know and have relationships with. I know some of the costs they paid as they pleaded with the denomination to recognize their humanity and not just dehumanize them as a sin or a theological problem.

The 2015 MCUSA convention in Kansas City where this conflict finally boiled over was one of the most gut-wrenching, painful, traumatic and toxic events that I ever attended. I watched Pink Menno advocates sob between delegate sessions. Where were you?

Who do you think you are that you can dismiss people just like that?

I know that I asked you at one point about it and you didn't respond then, perhaps you missed it.

What is your idea of how to handle a transgender that wishes to become a Christian? what steps must they take to follow Christ? Can they remain a transgender identifying as other then the birth gender? To clarify, I'm not talking about those very rare hermaphrodites...
In other words, do you see identifying as a different gender as sinful? or an expression of divinity as any man or woman that should be welcome as they are?

I would feel that calling sin sin is not dehumanizing anyone. If you are a glutton, we should call you to repentance as if you were a practicing homosexual or an adulterer. I suspect that simply saying its a call to recognize them as fellow people isn't what is really the goal but rather full acceptance as fellow children of God with all the rights of a Christian not limited to just taking communion and marriage but also leadership. The LGBTQ will not accept less then everything that a heterosexual has access to and will not accept their lifestyle being called sinful.

The LGBTQ also has serious struggles with marginalizing people as well, the detrans community, the lesbian not comfortable with MtF and so on. If they think that society is discriminating against them, perhaps they should look at their own bias resulting in much pain and suffering.

[nett]

I personally know some of those who advocated for LGBTQ inclusion. I attended college with some of the founders / early organizers of Pink Menno. For you to describe them as a “man came into your home, welcomed and appreciated, but over time he seduced your wife and won the hearts of your children” is offensive and arrogant. These are people I know and have relationships with. I know some of the costs they paid as they pleaded with the denomination to recognize their humanity and not just dehumanize them as a sin or a theological problem.

The 2015 MCUSA convention in Kansas City where this conflict finally boiled over was one of the most gut-wrenching, painful, traumatic and toxic events that I ever attended. I watched Pink Menno advocates sob between delegate sessions. Where were you?

Who do you think you are that you can dismiss people just like that?

Please tone down your gatekeeping, and self-righteousness, and then read your post back to yourself, but change out LGBT for pedophilia, or beastiality.

See the problem? Even if you do now, you won't in a few years, when that's what's being pushed, by the MAP mennos, or w/e they will call themselves.

[Szdfan]

I personally know some of those who advocated for LGBTQ inclusion. I attended college with some of the founders / early organizers of Pink Menno. For you to describe them as a “man came into your home, welcomed and appreciated, but over time he seduced your wife and won the hearts of your children” is offensive and arrogant. These are people I know and have relationships with. I know some of the costs they paid as they pleaded with the denomination to recognize their humanity and not just dehumanize them as a sin or a theological problem.

The 2015 MCUSA convention in Kansas City where this conflict finally boiled over was one of the most gut-wrenching, painful, traumatic and toxic events that I ever attended. I watched Pink Menno advocates sob between delegate sessions. Where were you?

Who do you think you are that you can dismiss people just like that?

Please tone down your gatekeeping, and self-righteousness, and then read your post back to yourself, but change out LGBT for pedophilia, or beastiality.

Temp insulted my colleagues and friends

See the problem? Even if you do now, you won't in a few years, when that's what's being pushed, by the MAP mennos, or w/e they will call themselves.

MAP as in Mennonite Abuse Prevention? https://www.themaplist.org/

As in the database that lists Mennonite clergy and other church workers that abused people in their care? I volunteered with that group when it was still part of the Mennonite chapter of SNAP, which is the victim advocacy organization that took on pedophile priests in the Catholic Church. I also went to college with the current director of the MAP list. He’s a passionate advocate for Mennonite abuse survivors. Are you seriously accusing them of promoting bestiality and pedophilia? Do you have any idea what you’re talking about?

[temporal1]

.. i forgive you.

[JimFoxvog]

I initiated a conversation with one of our church elders about our congregation changing affiliations and not being part of MC-USA. He will first read the passed documents and consider the nuances.

[mike]

(cough)

Considering that you’re an outsider, perhaps you should not lecture anyone about Mennonite institutional and relational dynamics.
The perspectives here are overwhelmingly conservative and view the conflict that was in MCUSA from that side.

The advocates for LGBTQ inclusion were not outsiders who seduced the church, they were largely people born and raised within the Mennonite Church. (It turns out that Mennonites also have queer children). MCUSA didn’t just belong to the theological conservatives, it also belonged to the progressives and I think they had every right to advocate for change.

I think there were some deeply unhealthy power dynamics in the old Mennonite Church that exploded in MCUSA. Short of kicking out all the liberals, I feel MCUSA bent over backwards to try to accommodate the conservatives (looking at you Lancaster Conference) who left anyway when they didn’t get what they wanted. Part of the problem was that the denomination believed we could use polity and resolutions to solve conflict, which ended up not solving anything.

Over a past few days, I’ve seen posts in social media that share some of my ambivalence about the resolution. There is both happiness and relief that the motions passed, but also a deep anger about the harm and trauma that the denomination has inflicted on the queer people in there midst. I’m also deeply cynical that resolutions mean anything in the actual life of the church, other than for their symbolic power.

This seems to talk about the MCUSA struggle over LGBTQ inclusion as though it was a mere difference of opinion on a completely immaterial issue such as the color of a church's carpets or whether committee meetings should be held at nine or ten o'clock. The core issue is not unhealthy power dynamics, accommodation, church polity, pouting over not getting one's way, or passing resolutions. The core issue is disagreement over the idea that practicing homosexuality is a sin according to the teachings of the Bible. As nett said above, substitute other sins such as pedophilia or adultery or necromancy in this discussion, and it will help put things into perspective.

In fact, if you understand how clearly this is a discussion of normalizing sinful behavior in the church, it is inconceivable how long many people and congregations who understand homosexual behavior to be sinful have remained in the MCUSA.

[nett]

I personally know some of those who advocated for LGBTQ inclusion. I attended college with some of the founders / early organizers of Pink Menno. For you to describe them as a “man came into your home, welcomed and appreciated, but over time he seduced your wife and won the hearts of your children” is offensive and arrogant. These are people I know and have relationships with. I know some of the costs they paid as they pleaded with the denomination to recognize their humanity and not just dehumanize them as a sin or a theological problem.

The 2015 MCUSA convention in Kansas City where this conflict finally boiled over was one of the most gut-wrenching, painful, traumatic and toxic events that I ever attended. I watched Pink Menno advocates sob between delegate sessions. Where were you?

Who do you think you are that you can dismiss people just like that?

Please tone down your gatekeeping, and self-righteousness, and then read your post back to yourself, but change out LGBT for pedophilia, or beastiality.

Temp insulted my colleagues and friends

See the problem? Even if you do now, you won't in a few years, when that's what's being pushed, by the MAP mennos, or w/e they will call themselves.

MAP as in Mennonite Abuse Prevention? https://www.themaplist.org/

As in the database that lists Mennonite clergy and other church workers that abused people in their care? I volunteered with that group when it was still part of the Mennonite chapter of SNAP, which is the victim advocacy organization that took on pedophile priests in the Catholic Church. I also went to college with the current director of the MAP list. He’s a passionate advocate for Mennonite abuse survivors. Are you seriously accusing them of promoting bestiality and pedophilia? Do you have any idea what you’re talking about?

MAP is an acronym used for "minor attracted person". You completely missed what I was saying.

[HondurasKeiser]

Jeremy:
The advocates for LGBTQ inclusion were not outsiders who seduced the church, they were largely people born and raised within the Mennonite Church. (It turns out that Mennonites also have queer children). MCUSA didn’t just belong to the theological conservatives, it also belonged to the progressives and I think they had every right to advocate for change.

i’m not the best one to pose this question, but, i have the impression, most on this forum agree to something-like,
“God has no grandchildren.”

Your words here confuse that idea.
i realize, there is confusion on that idea. It’s normal to very much WANT our children+grandchildren to be convicted believers.
And, it’s not uncommon for people to reverse or turn away from their beliefs, based on what they witness in their families.

But, if we believe God has no grandchildren, then, our babies+children are outsiders to be brought into the fold.

Here you seem to be describing the opposite. You describe inherited rights.

We should hope the church belongs to Jesus Christ.

I personally know some of those who advocated for LGBTQ inclusion. I attended college with some of the founders / early organizers of Pink Menno. For you to describe them as a “man came into your home, welcomed and appreciated, but over time he seduced your wife and won the hearts of your children” is offensive and arrogant. These are people I know and have relationships with. I know some of the costs they paid as they pleaded with the denomination to recognize their humanity and not just dehumanize them as a sin or a theological problem.

The 2015 MCUSA convention in Kansas City where this conflict finally boiled over was one of the most gut-wrenching, painful, traumatic and toxic events that I ever attended. I watched Pink Menno advocates sob between delegate sessions. Where were you?

Who do you think you are that you can dismiss people just like that?

A serious question SZD - why were your friends in Pink Menno sobbing between delegate sessions? What about the convention did you experience as gut-wrenching and toxic?