Covid-19 Vaccines and Christian Ethics

[Valerie]

Vaccine passports have come to our neighbours next door in BC. Our premier here has said that we will not have passports but if I’ve learned anything over the course of this pandemic, it’s that when a politician says “never” he means “not yet”.

So far the Christians I know are mixed in their views on the vaccine. Some have it, some don’t and most are cool about each other’s decisions. But some are leaning toward support of a vaccine passport.

So the ethical questions for Christians soon may be: should we support a vaccine passport? Should we oppose it? Are we bound to honour it or enforce it? Is it a spiritually neutral measure taken by government for the good of all?

Let's say that a passport lies within the government's authority but then the next step in the ratcheting process is to require it for church attendance. It's not such a big step from a certain point of view. After all, at one point the government closed churches to virtually all in Alberta and almost all churches complied; this is just a matter of closing churches to some.

Different Christians may answer the question in different ways, but there is no denying that at this point Christians' and churches' response to the Covid passport would have profound spiritual implications.

• One issue is: is the sin of partiality no longer a sin if it takes place by government mandate?

• Another is: We are told to give to Caesar what belongs to Cesar and give to God what is God’s. There is no question but that the church is God’s. If the line between Caesar and God can’t be drawn on the issue of church attendance, where can it be drawn?

• What would this do to church unity since enforcement of the passport would draw lines through almost every congregation? Would the unvaccinated have to form churches of their own, worshipping underground?

This line of speculation may seem farfetched to some, but there is nothing that has happened in the last 18 months which would not have been considered far fetched not so long ago. The scenario I have described above is where the logic of exclusion points. BC bars the unvaccinated from non essential businesses. Worship services are exempted for now but are churches essential? Many in today's society do not think so.

The government in BC told us we are non-essential for months restricting any church gatherings but allowing bars, casinos, and etc. to remain open. We are still non-essential but exempted for now... So they targeted us and ruined any trust we might have had and now exempting us...? What that distrust has caused is that I don't know any Christians who have got the vaccine because of that ridiculous inconsistent treatment. So now many of the people now that aren't allowed to "buy and sell" in certain shops are in fact Christians unless they receive the jab. Many are digging their heels in deeper with such a resemblance. I don't really care anymore if the vaccine works if this resembles the mark and it does now they can kill me first.

I think that resonates the same way with many Christians we know.

There is extreme hypocrisy about how & whose life matters in our government from the President, on down

Its created more suspicion that there is more going on than the government "caring" about lives. As you said, it will cause more to dog theirs heals in, & make some very hard choices. We know, according to prophesy, what's coming- step by step to "get there"

[Valerie]

I don't think the "vaccine passport" is actually the issue. A vaccine passport is just some type of recognizable proof of vaccination. The real issue is whether the government can (and should) require vaccines for indoor public meetings and indoor public venues. And, if so, how far those requirements will extend. We know that the vaccine spreads incredibly easily within enclosed crowded spaces (cruise ships, bars, schools, and yes, churches).

If I was a government heath official looking to bring the pandemic to an end (or prevent new outbreaks) and it was my job to deal with churches. I would turn the question back onto the churches in question and ask: "OK, if you have a religious objection to mandatory vaccines, what alternative mitigation measures do YOU propose to implement to provide the public with assurance that your church isn't going to become a super-spreader location and spread the virus back into the community? If not vaccines, what is YOUR plan to hold church services safely and assure the public that you are part of the solution not part of the problem?"

Good government shouldn't be a one-way street with mandates coming down from on high. When appropriate, it should be a 2-way process of finding the best, most creative, and least disruptive solutions to a problem.

So how do you propose to safely hold a large indoor gathering of unvaccinated people who are singing and in close contact? How do you assure to the participants and the public at large that you aren't spreading the virus? Vaccines are just one easy measure. What other alternative steps are you willing to take?

Your questions contain the assumption that the presence of unvaccinated members carries an elevated risk of transmission which creates a special need for mitigation and reassurance to the public. It's not an assumption that is supported by current data.

I would advise people who are symptomatic to stay home and ensure they are clear before returning. I would not differentiate between vaxed and unvaxed except maybe to remind vaccinated members that minor cold-like symptoms might be the sign that they are infectious. I would educate the members on ways to reduce infection risk through the use of supplements and to obtain effective early treatment. I would comply with official regulations. And finally we would pray.

Amen!!! But do you know how rare most of those suggestions are even known & shared among the average population?

[Wade]

Vaccine passports have come to our neighbours next door in BC. Our premier here has said that we will not have passports but if I’ve learned anything over the course of this pandemic, it’s that when a politician says “never” he means “not yet”.

So far the Christians I know are mixed in their views on the vaccine. Some have it, some don’t and most are cool about each other’s decisions. But some are leaning toward support of a vaccine passport.

So the ethical questions for Christians soon may be: should we support a vaccine passport? Should we oppose it? Are we bound to honour it or enforce it? Is it a spiritually neutral measure taken by government for the good of all?

Let's say that a passport lies within the government's authority but then the next step in the ratcheting process is to require it for church attendance. It's not such a big step from a certain point of view. After all, at one point the government closed churches to virtually all in Alberta and almost all churches complied; this is just a matter of closing churches to some.

Different Christians may answer the question in different ways, but there is no denying that at this point Christians' and churches' response to the Covid passport would have profound spiritual implications.

• One issue is: is the sin of partiality no longer a sin if it takes place by government mandate?

• Another is: We are told to give to Caesar what belongs to Cesar and give to God what is God’s. There is no question but that the church is God’s. If the line between Caesar and God can’t be drawn on the issue of church attendance, where can it be drawn?

• What would this do to church unity since enforcement of the passport would draw lines through almost every congregation? Would the unvaccinated have to form churches of their own, worshipping underground?

This line of speculation may seem farfetched to some, but there is nothing that has happened in the last 18 months which would not have been considered far fetched not so long ago. The scenario I have described above is where the logic of exclusion points. BC bars the unvaccinated from non essential businesses. Worship services are exempted for now but are churches essential? Many in today's society do not think so.

The government in BC told us we are non-essential for months restricting any church gatherings but allowing bars, casinos, and etc. to remain open. We are still non-essential but exempted for now... So they targeted us and ruined any trust we might have had and now exempting us...? What that distrust has caused is that I don't know any Christians who have got the vaccine because of that ridiculous inconsistent treatment. So now many of the people now that aren't allowed to "buy and sell" in certain shops are in fact Christians unless they receive the jab. Many are digging their heels in deeper with such a resemblance. I don't really care anymore if the vaccine works if this resembles the mark and it does now they can kill me first.

I think that resonates the same way with many Christians we know.

There is extreme hypocrisy about how & whose life matters in our government from the President, on down

Its created more suspicion that there is more going on than the government "caring" about lives. As you said, it will cause more to dog theirs heals in, & make some very hard choices. We know, according to prophesy, what's coming- step by step to "get there"

Last week when we met with three different doctors about my wife's surgery today 1 of those doctors didn't have any information of what protocols we should follow in the hospital and the other 2 chuckled when we asked. Now today 2 different teams of nurses doing paperwork for the surgery had to come back after all the questions because they forgot to even ask us the COVID questions - we were also let in to our room without any questioning.
After surgery 3 nurses were helping my wife and new baby and the one nurse turns to me and tells me I can take my mask off in our room and it is only needed in the hallway. I said okay and kept my mask on to be polite until they were finished and left. She repeated herself more firmly, I said okay and took my mask off and then she left me alone...
So far my experience with health professionals has been similar to this...
When I phone up my family doctor because I am sick months back and he tells me these measures are not reasonable and then after the last week of multiple doctors acting this way it does make it hard to understand all the other political views...

[nett]

The government in BC told us we are non-essential for months restricting any church gatherings but allowing bars, casinos, and etc. to remain open. We are still non-essential but exempted for now... So they targeted us and ruined any trust we might have had and now exempting us...? What that distrust has caused is that I don't know any Christians who have got the vaccine because of that ridiculous inconsistent treatment. So now many of the people now that aren't allowed to "buy and sell" in certain shops are in fact Christians unless they receive the jab. Many are digging their heels in deeper with such a resemblance. I don't really care anymore if the vaccine works if this resembles the mark and it does now they can kill me first.

I think that resonates the same way with many Christians we know.

There is extreme hypocrisy about how & whose life matters in our government from the President, on down

Its created more suspicion that there is more going on than the government "caring" about lives. As you said, it will cause more to dog theirs heals in, & make some very hard choices. We know, according to prophesy, what's coming- step by step to "get there"

Last week when we met with three different doctors about my wife's surgery today 1 of those doctors didn't have any information of what protocols we should follow in the hospital and the other 2 chuckled when we asked. Now today 2 different teams of nurses doing paperwork for the surgery had to come back after all the questions because they forgot to even ask us the COVID questions - we were also let in to our room without any questioning.
After surgery 3 nurses were helping my wife and new baby and the one nurse turns to me and tells me I can take my mask off in our room and it is only needed in the hallway. I said okay and kept my mask on to be polite until they were finished and left. She repeated herself more firmly, I said okay and took my mask off and then she left me alone...
So far my experience with health professionals has been similar to this...
When I phone up my family doctor because I am sick months back and he tells me these measures are not reasonable and then after the last week of multiple doctors acting this way it does make it hard to understand all the other political views...

What do you mean all of the other political views?

[Valerie]

The government in BC told us we are non-essential for months restricting any church gatherings but allowing bars, casinos, and etc. to remain open. We are still non-essential but exempted for now... So they targeted us and ruined any trust we might have had and now exempting us...? What that distrust has caused is that I don't know any Christians who have got the vaccine because of that ridiculous inconsistent treatment. So now many of the people now that aren't allowed to "buy and sell" in certain shops are in fact Christians unless they receive the jab. Many are digging their heels in deeper with such a resemblance. I don't really care anymore if the vaccine works if this resembles the mark and it does now they can kill me first.

I think that resonates the same way with many Christians we know.

There is extreme hypocrisy about how & whose life matters in our government from the President, on down

Its created more suspicion that there is more going on than the government "caring" about lives. As you said, it will cause more to dog theirs heals in, & make some very hard choices. We know, according to prophesy, what's coming- step by step to "get there"

Last week when we met with three different doctors about my wife's surgery today 1 of those doctors didn't have any information of what protocols we should follow in the hospital and the other 2 chuckled when we asked. Now today 2 different teams of nurses doing paperwork for the surgery had to come back after all the questions because they forgot to even ask us the COVID questions - we were also let in to our room without any questioning.
After surgery 3 nurses were helping my wife and new baby and the one nurse turns to me and tells me I can take my mask off in our room and it is only needed in the hallway. I said okay and kept my mask on to be polite until they were finished and left. She repeated herself more firmly, I said okay and took my mask off and then she left me alone...
So far my experience with health professionals has been similar to this...
When I phone up my family doctor because I am sick months back and he tells me these measures are not reasonable and then after the last week of multiple doctors acting this way it does make it hard to understand all the other political views...

All true, "most" nurses i talk to (because I encounter many at my job) have shared enough with me to question the political aspect of this. Well actually I questioned it from the beginning so they've only helped to confirm that which I already instinctively felt from the very beginning.

By the way congratulations on your new addition to the family did you share that any other thread??

[Wade]

I think that resonates the same way with many Christians we know.

There is extreme hypocrisy about how & whose life matters in our government from the President, on down

Its created more suspicion that there is more going on than the government "caring" about lives. As you said, it will cause more to dog theirs heals in, & make some very hard choices. We know, according to prophesy, what's coming- step by step to "get there"

Last week when we met with three different doctors about my wife's surgery today 1 of those doctors didn't have any information of what protocols we should follow in the hospital and the other 2 chuckled when we asked. Now today 2 different teams of nurses doing paperwork for the surgery had to come back after all the questions because they forgot to even ask us the COVID questions - we were also let in to our room without any questioning.
After surgery 3 nurses were helping my wife and new baby and the one nurse turns to me and tells me I can take my mask off in our room and it is only needed in the hallway. I said okay and kept my mask on to be polite until they were finished and left. She repeated herself more firmly, I said okay and took my mask off and then she left me alone...
So far my experience with health professionals has been similar to this...
When I phone up my family doctor because I am sick months back and he tells me these measures are not reasonable and then after the last week of multiple doctors acting this way it does make it hard to understand all the other political views...

All true, "most" nurses i talk to (because I encounter many at my job) have shared enough with me to question the political aspect of this. Well actually I questioned it from the beginning so they've only helped to confirm that which I already instinctively felt from the very beginning.

By the way congratulations on your new addition to the family did you share that any other thread??

Nope. 7th child, 4th boy, born a couple weeks early and just shy of 7lbs. Mama and boy are doing well.

[Wade]

I think that resonates the same way with many Christians we know.

There is extreme hypocrisy about how & whose life matters in our government from the President, on down

Its created more suspicion that there is more going on than the government "caring" about lives. As you said, it will cause more to dog theirs heals in, & make some very hard choices. We know, according to prophesy, what's coming- step by step to "get there"

Last week when we met with three different doctors about my wife's surgery today 1 of those doctors didn't have any information of what protocols we should follow in the hospital and the other 2 chuckled when we asked. Now today 2 different teams of nurses doing paperwork for the surgery had to come back after all the questions because they forgot to even ask us the COVID questions - we were also let in to our room without any questioning.
After surgery 3 nurses were helping my wife and new baby and the one nurse turns to me and tells me I can take my mask off in our room and it is only needed in the hallway. I said okay and kept my mask on to be polite until they were finished and left. She repeated herself more firmly, I said okay and took my mask off and then she left me alone...
So far my experience with health professionals has been similar to this...
When I phone up my family doctor because I am sick months back and he tells me these measures are not reasonable and then after the last week of multiple doctors acting this way it does make it hard to understand all the other political views...

What do you mean all of the other political views?

When doctors are telling me the measures being taken are unreasonable, when they laughingly disregard us worrying much about COVID protocols, when nurses are getting me to take my mask off and I'm staying in the hospital without any testing or vaccine then it sure seems the health care professionals sure are taking a different approach than what is shared on the news - which all then seems quite political. If vaccinated people need to be protected from the unvaccinated then that to me is an admission the vaccine doesn't work but yet our Prime Minister is saying this is the pandemic of the unvaccinated - so when a person's ability to choose becomes the problem rather than about saving people anymore that looks political to me.

[Valerie]

Last week when we met with three different doctors about my wife's surgery today 1 of those doctors didn't have any information of what protocols we should follow in the hospital and the other 2 chuckled when we asked. Now today 2 different teams of nurses doing paperwork for the surgery had to come back after all the questions because they forgot to even ask us the COVID questions - we were also let in to our room without any questioning.
After surgery 3 nurses were helping my wife and new baby and the one nurse turns to me and tells me I can take my mask off in our room and it is only needed in the hallway. I said okay and kept my mask on to be polite until they were finished and left. She repeated herself more firmly, I said okay and took my mask off and then she left me alone...
So far my experience with health professionals has been similar to this...
When I phone up my family doctor because I am sick months back and he tells me these measures are not reasonable and then after the last week of multiple doctors acting this way it does make it hard to understand all the other political views...

All true, "most" nurses i talk to (because I encounter many at my job) have shared enough with me to question the political aspect of this. Well actually I questioned it from the beginning so they've only helped to confirm that which I already instinctively felt from the very beginning.

By the way congratulations on your new addition to the family did you share that any other thread??

Nope. 7th child, 4th boy, born a couple weeks early and just shy of 7lbs. Mama and boy are doing well.

Thanks be to God! Congratulations!!

[nett]

Last week when we met with three different doctors about my wife's surgery today 1 of those doctors didn't have any information of what protocols we should follow in the hospital and the other 2 chuckled when we asked. Now today 2 different teams of nurses doing paperwork for the surgery had to come back after all the questions because they forgot to even ask us the COVID questions - we were also let in to our room without any questioning.
After surgery 3 nurses were helping my wife and new baby and the one nurse turns to me and tells me I can take my mask off in our room and it is only needed in the hallway. I said okay and kept my mask on to be polite until they were finished and left. She repeated herself more firmly, I said okay and took my mask off and then she left me alone...
So far my experience with health professionals has been similar to this...
When I phone up my family doctor because I am sick months back and he tells me these measures are not reasonable and then after the last week of multiple doctors acting this way it does make it hard to understand all the other political views...

What do you mean all of the other political views?

When doctors are telling me the measures being taken are unreasonable, when they laughingly disregard us worrying much about COVID protocols, when nurses are getting me to take my mask off and I'm staying in the hospital without any testing or vaccine then it sure seems the health care professionals sure are taking a different approach than what is shared on the news - which all then seems quite political. If vaccinated people need to be protected from the unvaccinated then that to me is an admission the vaccine doesn't work but yet our PM is saying this is the pandemic of the unvaccinated - so when a person's ability to choose becomes the problem rather than about saving people anymore that looks political to me.

Ah, I see.

For what it's worth, I had the same experience last year when we were in the hospital. Our son ended up in the nicu right after he was born due to a nurse's incompetence. The policy then was that myself and my wife were not allowed to be in his room together, and that we had to have masks on at all times.

We were very blessed to have a nicu nurse who helped us sneak into the room together, and let us stay with the baby there for a few hours. She even got another nurse re-assigned to another floor, because she new she was a mask-zealot. The doctors and almost all of the other nurses were like this, helping us skirt the procedures as much as possible to make our experience less miserable.

That experience at the hospital during the supposed peak of COVID last year really changed my perspective on it. I came back home, and basically could not longer see COVID as the fearsome omen of death that I had previously been afraid of. After experiencing the nonchalance with which the medical staff, who dealt with the worst of COVID, had, it was just hard to care as much.

We gradually have moved on from COVID, with the exception of vaccine mandates, it no longer really affects our lives at all, and that includes our church, and the elderly people there.

[Valerie]

Last week when we met with three different doctors about my wife's surgery today 1 of those doctors didn't have any information of what protocols we should follow in the hospital and the other 2 chuckled when we asked. Now today 2 different teams of nurses doing paperwork for the surgery had to come back after all the questions because they forgot to even ask us the COVID questions - we were also let in to our room without any questioning.
After surgery 3 nurses were helping my wife and new baby and the one nurse turns to me and tells me I can take my mask off in our room and it is only needed in the hallway. I said okay and kept my mask on to be polite until they were finished and left. She repeated herself more firmly, I said okay and took my mask off and then she left me alone...
So far my experience with health professionals has been similar to this...
When I phone up my family doctor because I am sick months back and he tells me these measures are not reasonable and then after the last week of multiple doctors acting this way it does make it hard to understand all the other political views...

What do you mean all of the other political views?

When doctors are telling me the measures being taken are unreasonable, when they laughingly disregard us worrying much about COVID protocols, when nurses are getting me to take my mask off and I'm staying in the hospital without any testing or vaccine then it sure seems the health care professionals sure are taking a different approach than what is shared on the news - which all then seems quite political. If vaccinated people need to be protected from the unvaccinated then that to me is an admission the vaccine doesn't work but yet our Prime Minister is saying this is the pandemic of the unvaccinated - so when a person's ability to choose becomes the problem rather than about saving people anymore that looks political to me.

Exactly. Recently I went to my doctor and I noticed only two people out of all his office staff had Masks on. I assumed I'd have to wear one but they told me I didn't need to and they didn't ask if I was vaccinated. When my doctor came in for the exam, I asked him if I needed my mask on and he said no, maybe to protect yourself. And again he didn't inquire whether I had received the vaccination.

Today at work I saw one of the nurses who had told me around Easter, that she would not get the vaccine. Neither would her daughter who is a nurse in Virginia and works directly with covid patients. I hadn't seen this nurse for a while so I approached her and asked her how she is getting around the vaccine issue where she works as a nurse. She told me so far the Cleveland clinic in Ohio does not require you to be vaccinated, that kind of surprised me but I was glad to hear that. Cleveland clinic has a very reputable reputation, what do they know that others don't know?