Genesis 1: What is a 'firmament'?

[Falco Underhill]

Waters above and waters beneath, could be demonstrated with a modern globe.

Let me just say I think it's interesting how the CFs, guessing upon the language of Genesis, thought all the water vapors in the air condensed into rain, causing the Deluge.

[Ken]

Waters above and waters beneath, could be demonstrated with a modern globe.

Let me just say I think it's interesting how the CFs, guessing upon the language of Genesis, thought all the water vapors in the air condensed into rain, causing the Deluge.

Who are the CFs?

[Falco Underhill]

Waters above and waters beneath, could be demonstrated with a modern globe.

Let me just say I think it's interesting how the CFs, guessing upon the language of Genesis, thought all the water vapors in the air condensed into rain, causing the Deluge.

Who are the CFs?

Church Fathers. I just get tired of writing it out.

[Ken]

Let me just say I think it's interesting how the CFs, guessing upon the language of Genesis, thought all the water vapors in the air condensed into rain, causing the Deluge.

Who are the CFs?

Church Fathers. I just get tired of writing it out.

I googled "CF" and came up with a lot of possibilities, some of them vulgar. But Church Fathers was not one of them

[Bootstrap]

Waters above and waters beneath, could be demonstrated with a modern globe.

I'm having a hard time seeing a modern globe in this text. Can you help me understand what part of this corresponds to a modern globe? Is there any hint that the earth is a sphere or that the earth is a planet like other planets in this chapter?

1 IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters. 3 And God said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

6 And God said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.' 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

9 And God said: 'Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear.' And it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters called He Seas; and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.

[Neto]

Waters above and waters beneath, could be demonstrated with a modern globe.

I'm having a hard time seeing a modern globe in this text. Can you help me understand what part of this corresponds to a modern globe? Is there any hint that the earth is a sphere or that the earth is a planet like other planets in this chapter?

1 IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters. 3 And God said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

6 And God said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.' 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

9 And God said: 'Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear.' And it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters called He Seas; and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.

Neither is there anything there that suggests a flat earth. Elsewhere we have figurative language in the Scripture referring to the earth as "the four corners of the earth", and also as "the circle of the earth".

[Ken]

Waters above and waters beneath, could be demonstrated with a modern globe.

I'm having a hard time seeing a modern globe in this text. Can you help me understand what part of this corresponds to a modern globe? Is there any hint that the earth is a sphere or that the earth is a planet like other planets in this chapter?

1 IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters. 3 And God said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

6 And God said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.' 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

9 And God said: 'Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear.' And it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters called He Seas; and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.

Neither is there anything there that suggests a flat earth. Elsewhere we have figurative language in the Scripture referring to the earth as "the four corners of the earth", and also as "the circle of the earth".

How do you know that the language alluding to a flat earth is "figurative" But Genesis 1 and 2 are to be taking literally?

[RZehr]

Waters above and waters beneath, could be demonstrated with a modern globe.

I'm having a hard time seeing a modern globe in this text. Can you help me understand what part of this corresponds to a modern globe? Is there any hint that the earth is a sphere or that the earth is a planet like other planets in this chapter?

I’m saying that if you take a regular globe of the earth, set it on your dining room table, it will typically be oriented with the North Pole on top, and the South Pole “beneath”, right?
In that sense, there is waters “above” the equator, and waters “below”. To explore this idea, then the land would be in the “midst” of all the waters. Roughly speaking.

Not to get hung up on the North being the “top”, or any thing, other than just saying no matter which way one positions a sphere, one side will be the “above” and one side will be “beneath”.

[Ken]

Waters above and waters beneath, could be demonstrated with a modern globe.

I'm having a hard time seeing a modern globe in this text. Can you help me understand what part of this corresponds to a modern globe? Is there any hint that the earth is a sphere or that the earth is a planet like other planets in this chapter?

I’m saying that if you take a regular globe of the earth, set it on your dining room table, it will typically be oriented with the North Pole on top, and the South Pole “beneath”, right?
In that sense, there is waters “above” the equator, and waters “below”. To explore this idea, then the land would be in the “midst” of all the waters. Roughly speaking.

Not to get hung up on the North being the “top”, or any thing, other than just saying no matter which way one positions a sphere, one side will be the “above” and one side will be “beneath”.

But in a heliocentric spherical earth there is no up or down. Or at least there is no reason to put the north pole up. In fact on most globes, the north pole is not up. The earth is tilted 23.5 degrees on its axis on most globes so it is actually the Arctic Circle that is directly on the top of the globe. One might more logically position one's own position at the top of the globe if one is modeling an Old Testament frame of reference.

[Bootstrap]

I'm having a hard time seeing a modern globe in this text. Can you help me understand what part of this corresponds to a modern globe? Is there any hint that the earth is a sphere or that the earth is a planet like other planets in this chapter?

Neither is there anything there that suggests a flat earth. Elsewhere we have figurative language in the Scripture referring to the earth as "the four corners of the earth", and also as "the circle of the earth".

I agree.

Best to stick with the language we find in the text itself.