Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[HondurasKeiser]

Republicans have shown themselves to be rather bloodthirsty and to invade a country on false pretenses (wmd that never existed) and cause a million deaths.

I don’t think collective punishment of everyone who voted for Bush in 2000 would be the right thing to do, though.

if i recall .. bush had bipartisan (aka career politician) support, and, the MIC generally enjoys this phenom.
as the current admin demonstrates.

More importantly, no one is advocating for Collective Punishment.

[RZehr]

Republicans have shown themselves to be rather bloodthirsty and to invade a country on false pretenses (wmd that never existed) and cause a million deaths.

in 2016 I worried about Trump being this way. But it turned out that he was a closeted peacemonger all along. Nice.

[Heirbyadoption]

What about the 49.9% of Gazans that didn't support Hamas?
The last election was in 2006. Does it seem appropriate to punish people today for an election that happened 17 years ago?

Your original comment was in reference to the 51% of Gazans that support Hamas - saying it was barbaric to hold them accountable in some way. I disagree with that assessment. Whether or not there have been elections recently is irrelevant to the fact that still, after 17 years, 51% of Gazans support Hamas.

I feel for the people of Gaza that don't support Hamas and are nevertheless caught in the crossfire. Though again I note that unlike Hamas, Israel warns civilians before dropping their bombs that are targeted to Hamas installations.

Putting a city under siege is indeed "collective punishment", and Gaza has been under siege now for 18 years.

Gaza has not been under siege. Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza after the 2-State Peace Talks were rejected by the P.A. and they instead decided to initiate the 2nd Intifada. Gaza was turned over to the Palestinians and the Israelis living there, 9000 of them, were forcibly removed from their Gazan homes so that Palestinians could be fully in control of their own territory and there could be no pretext for violence. Hamas, not content with Gaza as their primary goal is the eradication of Israel, after coming to power and with the aid and training of Iran began a campaign of suicide bombing, rocket launches and tunneling as a means of kidnapping/hostage taking.

At each escalation, Israel put stronger measures in place to try and contain Hamas in Gaza and avoid a direct confrontation. This is what Netanyahu explicitly stated when he came to power in 2009. This then was how Iron Dome came to be - a direct response to Hamas switching from suicide bombers to missile barrages.

It should also be noted that Palestinian children wouldn't be dying in such large numbers if Hamas didn't locate their headquarters, rocket launchers and munitions piles in hospitals, next to schools, and inside apartment complexes.

Does that make it somehow okay to kill babies and children?

If Hamas cared about dead children and babies they wouldn't put their weapons store next to schools and in apartment buildings.

How do you suggest Israel deal with an organization bent on their destruction and willing to use rape, kidnapping and the decapitation of babies as part of its tactics?

Josh, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on these questions as well.

[HondurasKeiser]

Richard Hanania, himself an ethnic Palestinian, has a post that I think expresses well a lot of the ambivalence people here are expressing:

That brings us to the Israeli-Palestinian dispute. Some will talk of the “right” of Israel to defend itself, or the “right” of Palestinian self-determination. But Israel’s right to defend itself means killing a lot of innocent people. And the Palestinian right to self-determination is just a fancy way of saying men with guns telling other people what to do because of where they happen to live, which given the record of Arabs I’m sure they would screw up much more than most other states have.

With utilitarianism, we might at least hope to make some progress, unlike what tends to happen when we engage in endless debates about who has the right to do what.

All reasonable people agree that Hamas is a bad actor, and both sides would be better off if they no longer had power. The problem is that they hide among civilians, and there’s no way to eliminate them without causing a lot of pain to innocent third parties. There’s also the question of what comes afterwards, and who exactly ends up governing Gaza.

What seems certain is that there is no decent future for the people of the territory as long as the current leadership is in charge. Hamas will not only continually attack Israel, but keep its own citizens poor, repressed, and subject to reprisals. The question of what to do about this seems like a classic dilemma in which we have to ask ourselves whether we want to inflict short term pain for a greater long term good.

Israel controls the flow of food and electricity into Gaza. It should leverage that, along with air and bombing campaigns, in order to achieve a different kind of government. Kicking many of the Palestinians out and finding new homes for them would probably be the best of all worlds, as no matter how much trouble they might cause in Europe or Egypt, it won’t be as bad as them staying in Gaza. Israel making life so unlivable that they leave, while working with the US to pressure other countries to open up their borders, seems like sound policy. The population of Gaza is 2.5 million. Whatever the outflow is, it should be manageable if it is treated as a global problem. Turkey alone currently hosts 3.7 million refugees.

Anti-war types will make the argument that repression hasn’t worked up to this point. Yet given the power disparity between the two sides, Israel has been remarkably restrained. The 2008-2009 Gaza War, for example, led to 1,000-1,500 combatant and civilian deaths, a tiny fraction of the population. We can analogize this to the struggle against crime in El Salvador, which I’ve previously written about. People for a long time said you can’t just arrest your way out of the problem. Then Bukele came along, went much further than everyone else while ignoring the human rights crowd, and suddenly the murder rate plummeted.

It’s obvious that a real siege of Gaza, where food, medicine, and electricity are cut off indefinitely, would harm a lot of civilians. But it would hopefully build pressure to encourage other countries to let many Palestinians leave. Of those who stayed, the situation would eventually become so dire that something would have to change. Israel would be wise to extract at the very least a demand for recognition before it lifts the siege. Direct governance is probably impossible, but they could eventually perhaps hope for their own Kadyrov, which could in the best case scenario be the first step towards something better down the line once the death cult of Palestinian resistance is extinguished.

The recent attack has in any event shown that the status quo is untenable, by making it impossible to deny the ultimate ambitions of Hamas, while reminding us that their capabilities are likely to only increase over time. Israel has tried the path of seeking to ensure that Gazans suffer as little as possible for the actions of their government, based on the theory that they are not responsible for what Hamas does. This moral intuition is correct, but it does not give guidance regarding how to go forward.

[Sudsy]

I haven't read all 16 pages on this subject but I did see where some are saying we should pray for peace.

I am curious as to what others would pray and how they believe peace comes about. Is it something that God causes to happen because we pray for it ? Can the world live in peace if they do not recognize Jesus as the Prince of Peace ? Doesn't real peace come from a belief in Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit into our lives to allow us to experience real peace ? Christians are promised a peace that goes beyond our understanding.

Here are a few prayers for peace. Is there any one of these that especially stands out to you as a prayer for peace in these circumstances in Israel ?

https://www.xavier.edu/jesuitresource/o ... iddle-east

[temporal1]

Republicans have shown themselves to be rather bloodthirsty and to invade a country on false pretenses (wmd that never existed) and cause a million deaths.

in 2016 I worried about Trump being this way. But it turned out that he was a closeted peacemonger all along. Nice.

110%.
The rhetoric against Trump was-so-bad, once elected, i “braced for inevitable nuclear attack” -
then, was very pleasantly surprised.

If this doesn’t convince about the depth+power of lib propaganda - NOTHING WILL.
[Not to say they have a monopoly.] But, come on.

i suppose this, alone, explains my own generosity toward DJT, and unwillingness to jump on neverending accusations hurled at him.
i’m not ashamed to say.

[Josh]

Republicans have shown themselves to be rather bloodthirsty and to invade a country on false pretenses (wmd that never existed) and cause a million deaths.

I don’t think collective punishment of everyone who voted for Bush in 2000 would be the right thing to do, though.

if i recall .. bush had bipartisan (aka career politician) support, and, the MIC generally enjoys this phenom.
as the current admin demonstrates.

Some mainstream Democrats supported the invasion but there was a vocal minority that spoke against it. For the purpose of rhetoric, I decided to highlight what the Republicans did (since their support for invading Iraq was about universal). And asking if the same standard being applied to Gazans should be applied to Americans who voted for Republicans (or mainstream Democrats).

What America did to Iraqis is far, far worse than anything Hamas has done to Israelis. Over 250,000 people died from direct war related violence by even the most conservative estimates.

[Josh]

Your original comment was in reference to the 51% of Gazans that support Hamas - saying it was barbaric to hold them accountable in some way. I disagree with that assessment. Whether or not there have been elections recently is irrelevant to the fact that still, after 17 years, 51% of Gazans support Hamas.

I feel for the people of Gaza that don't support Hamas and are nevertheless caught in the crossfire. Though again I note that unlike Hamas, Israel warns civilians before dropping their bombs that are targeted to Hamas installations.

There's a difference between a "Gazan" and a "full-on supporter of Hamas", and I think that's an important distinction, just like there are many Americans who don't endorse everything the U.S. government, military, or Republican or Democratic parties do.

Gaza has not been under siege. Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza after the 2-State Peace Talks were rejected by the P.A. and they instead decided to initiate the 2nd Intifada. Gaza was turned over to the Palestinians and the Israelis living there, 9000 of them, were forcibly removed from their Gazan homes so that Palestinians could be fully in control of their own territory and there could be no pretext for violence. Hamas, not content with Gaza as their primary goal is the eradication of Israel, after coming to power and with the aid and training of Iran began a campaign of suicide bombing, rocket launches and tunneling as a means of kidnapping/hostage taking.

Gaza has no access to its own coastline or freedom of navigation in the sea. Israel blockades it and controls everything that goes in and out.

Likewise, Gaza's airspace is blockaded. Gaza has no freedom to conduct any aviation and the Israelis bombed the daylights out of their airport, which used to be the only regularly used airport in Palestinian controlled territory.

In such a blockaided, sieged environment, an organisation like Hamas thrives.

At each escalation, Israel put stronger measures in place to try and contain Hamas in Gaza and avoid a direct confrontation. This is what Netanyahu explicitly stated when he came to power in 2009. This then was how Iron Dome came to be - a direct response to Hamas switching from suicide bombers to missile barrages.

Yes, things like Iron Dome are a good thing.

If Hamas cared about dead children and babies they wouldn't put their weapons store next to schools and in apartment buildings.

I don't think any of us think what Hamas is doing is right. They should stop what they are doing. The question is, is it okay to justify doing the same thing back?

How do you suggest Israel deal with an organization bent on their destruction and willing to use rape, kidnapping and the decapitation of babies as part of its tactics?

I think the "decapitation of babies" thing is largely emotive (there is, as of yet, still no evidence this actually happened). If we want to have a grown-up discussion about this, it starts with not giving into violent rhetoric that is then used to justify why killing Gazan children and babies is okay.

[HondurasKeiser]

As for the Israeli response: Collateral Damage is not the same as Collective Retribution. Hamas is engaged in the later whilst Israel in the former. Max has already pointed out that Israel "knocks" before bombing, an unreciprocated courtesy.

Israel has cut off all power and communications within Gaza.

Can you or Max explain what form this "knocking before bombing" takes? Smoke signals?

Here's another example, as reported by The Dispatch:

The Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) late Thursday night issued an evacuation order for the some 1.1 million people living in the northern half of the Gaza Strip in apparent preparation for an operation against terrorist infrastructure in and around Gaza City. In an alert to Gaza residents, the IDF urged civilians to move south and distance themselves “from Hamas terrorists who are using you as human shields.” Hamas, meanwhile, has dismissed the order as part of a “psychological war” and told residents to stay put. Some Gazans have even reported being forced to remain in their homes by Hamas after trying to evacuate.

[temporal1]

October 13
(terrorists don’t usually warn) surprise attacks against the unprepared/defenseless are the mainstay.

A Christian response:

IFI / Illinois Family Institute / “The Weapon Taking On Jihad”
https://illinoisfamily.org/islam-sharia ... -on-jihad/

.. In the video post by Mashal on YouTube, he called this day to be “the Friday of Al-Aqsa flood,” — sending a message of rage to Zionists and to America.

The call is for Muslim martyrs to step up. Not with money — as has been requested before. But for blood. Khalid Mashal wants Muslims who live in the countries surrounding Israel — Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt— to inflict pain on the Jews.

Wherever they can.

There are still over 100 hostages being held in Gaza. Several of them Americans. Many tour groups remain in Israel with their dream trips to the Holy Land now in peril.

For people of the Christian faith, we are not powerless.

Encouraging the Christians of his day, the Apostle Paul wrote,
“The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.”
(Rom. 16:20, ESV)

The great warrior for prayer, E.M. Bounds noted that men and women are to pray in every place, in the church, in the closet, in the home, on sacred days and on secular days. All things and everything are dependent on the measure of men’s praying.

All things and everything.

Yes, the defeat of evil.

Let’s take up that task in full measure for October 13th!