Worldliness

[MattY]

The word "worldly" is doing a whole ton of work in several threads recently. This is work that it was not meant to do.

some worldly institutions and systems, such as much of the transitional conservative Anabaptist church systems,

The Holdeman men I see on a regular basis wear T-shirts and jeans and are basically indistinguishable from many worldly men.

As I understand it, Holdemans diverged from worldly clothing sometime in the 1960s.

As I said earlier, the problem with moderate conservatives is the transitional nature of (some) of them, where they have a steady stream in the front door of people from more-conservative backgrounds (and a steady stream out the back door of people heading for even more worldly places).

The implication, of course, is that to be outwardly more conservative or traditionally "plain" is to have less worldliness and thus more Christlikeness; as if the cut of a man's suit, the amount of buttons on his shirt, or the difference between a knee-length skirt and an ankle-length skirt has anything to do with worldliness.

"Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?"

For where there is strife, jealousy, impatience, hasty generalizations, false reporting, being overly swift to speak (or type), answering a matter before hearing it, prideful retorts, harsh judgments, and so on, there is worldliness. Here worldliness can be found, on MennoNet itself. And in every human heart, in the old man that must be put off every day. Not in the differences between Pilgrim and Midwest Conference. Nor can it be escaped by moving to Tennessee, or Bolivia, or to a convent, or to the top of a pole in Egypt.

This type of worldliness is exactly what the Bible says will happen when we adopt the false gospel of asceticism that says implementing more external restrictions will lead to more spirituality and holiness. (This does NOT mean that you need to e.g. start watching movies to be more holy - although I have no problem with a discerning, thoughtful enjoyment of that audio-visual format - nor that you can be more worldly and be closer to Christ. No one thinks that). As Col. 2:23 notes, they have an appearance of wisdom, but no real value against fleshly desires. It leads to passing judgement on one another (Rom. 14:13), treating one another with contempt (14:10), and spiritual pride - comparing ourselves among ourselves, concluding people are an utterly lost cause, etc.

I respect a desire to just follow Christ, be more like Christ, etc., and to want others to follow Him. Having that desire does not mean that one has an accurate view of the world. Much like the proverbial blind men feeling different parts of an elephant, people who want to follow Christ exist in many different denominations. Don't despise the faith of the one who left what seemed a dead formalism to find a faith in a church that looks different from yours, even if you personally found that you had to join a more restrictive setting to find what seems to be a serious commitment.

[Anthony]

I think they are just using the term “worldly” more broadly than you. I personally think its a legitimate use of the term, even though the bible meant an interior worldly attitude

[barnhart]

There is a lot of wisdom in Matt's post. Many threads on mennonet would be reduced to several posts if there were no private or bespoke word definitions.

[Ernie]

This type of worldliness is exactly what the Bible says will happen when we adopt the false gospel of asceticism that says implementing more external restrictions will lead to more spirituality and holiness.

There is much that I agree with in your original post.
On this particular point, there are likely many Anabaptists who believe that implementing more external restrictions will lead to more spirituality and holiness.

For the rest, there is no illusion that implementing external restrictions will automatically produce spirituality or holiness. Restrictions are made for the purpose of helping people deny themselves of certain things, so as to be able to give one's heart and attention to more important things.
External restrictions are also viewed as a greenhouse for those who are weak, so that they can gain some spiritual strength before being turned loose in the harsh climate outside the greenhouse. Look around at the "plants" that have not had a greenhouse and see how many die who may have survived had they had the opportunity to be planted in a green house. Nearly all dedicated Christians believe in this greenhouse thing. We just differ on when people should be exposed to the harsh realities outside the greenhouse.

[joshuabgood]

Restrictions are made for the purpose of helping people deny themselves of certain things, so as to be able to give one's heart and attention to more important things.

I support this. I think it is best applied to oneself and other likeminded subgroups that may wish to, say, avoid Smartphones, or ice cream, or hunting. Or to do certain other things, read 20 books a year, go to the gym, go to church each time the doors are open, etc.

I don't see Biblical data that such restrictions should be linked to whether or not one is "fellowshipped" with...or the cause of denial of communion of the saints.

[Ernie]

Restrictions are made for the purpose of helping people deny themselves of certain things, so as to be able to give one's heart and attention to more important things.

I support this. I think it is best applied to oneself and other likeminded subgroups that may wish to, say, avoid Smartphones, or ice cream, or hunting. Or to do certain other things, read 20 books a year, go to the gym, go to church each time the doors are open, etc.

I don't see Biblical data that such restrictions should be linked to whether or not one is "fellowshipped" with...or the cause of denial of communion of the saints.

Agreed.

[JohnH]

Restrictions are made for the purpose of helping people deny themselves of certain things, so as to be able to give one's heart and attention to more important things.

I support this. I think it is best applied to oneself and other likeminded subgroups that may wish to, say, avoid Smartphones, or ice cream, or hunting. Or to do certain other things, read 20 books a year, go to the gym, go to church each time the doors are open, etc.

I don't see Biblical data that such restrictions should be linked to whether or not one is "fellowshipped" with...or the cause of denial of communion of the saints.

I prefer not to commune with people who, for example, carry guns, vote, run for office, etc

[JohnH]

The implication, of course, is that to be outwardly more conservative or traditionally "plain" is to have less worldliness and thus more Christlikeness; as if the cut of a man's suit, the amount of buttons on his shirt, or the difference between a knee-length skirt and an ankle-length skirt has anything to do with worldliness.

One of my complaints with moderate conservative groups (particularly Amish Mennonites such as Beachys and other similar groups) is their culture concerning conservative Anabaptism tends to be very, very clothing based. I don’t agree with this either.

I do think these things are worldly, and they are all things I got to experience members in the various moderate and fundamental conservative churches around me in Ohio and Pa doing:

- voting, involvement in politics
- watching movies, TV, streaming TV
- listening to Rush Limbaugh and NPR on the radio
- vaping, including encouraging younger youth under 18 to try it
- attending pro or college level sports games and generally being a big fan
- acquiring video game consoles, playing a lot of video games with first person shooting / military themes
- acquiring and carrying handguns and military styled rifles
- drunkenness on beach type vacations

Other than the vaping, I discussed these things with the various members doing these things and heard all manner of justifications, including citing that the Bible doesn’t say you can’t do these things; it actually being morally justified to do so; and concern I might be falling into “legalism”.

Now regarding attire I hope you’ll agree these things aren’t good, also practiced by members in good standing around here:

- two piece bikini style swimsuits in public on the aforementioned vacations; men likewise shirtless; mixed bathing
- back at home, women wearing yoga style pants with no long shirt or long sweater, exposed stomachs, short-shorts
- for both sexes, wearing attire branded with a college or pro sports team
- men wearing athletic shorts with a casual attitude and posture that is immodest

I think a Christian church with members filled with the spirit won’t have members doing these things, and if they do, they need to be admonished to repent. I do think however attire is a small part of Christian life, not a big part.

I have a lot of respect for evangelical Christian women who might wear a common fashion for them such as blue jeans, an adequately long T-shirt without a low neckline, a scarf, etc. - they make an effort to be more modest than the broader world.

For where there is strife, jealousy, impatience, hasty generalizations, false reporting, being overly swift to speak (or type), answering a matter before hearing it, prideful retorts, harsh judgments, and so on, there is worldliness. Here worldliness can be found, on MennoNet itself. And in every human heart, in the old man that must be put off every day. Not in the differences between Pilgrim and Midwest Conference. Nor can it be escaped by moving to Tennessee, or Bolivia, or to a convent, or to the top of a pole in Egypt.

I agree those things aren’t good.

However, a common debate tactic to shut down anyone who wants to speak against increasing worldliness is to rebuke the person who observes it as having some kind of spiritual defect. I reject this.

(Once I confronted someone for adultery and presented it to the ministry. They were concerned I might not be forgiving or hold a grudge. I wasn’t and found it odd this would even be a concern - his wife certainly might not forgive him, but I was concerned for his soul. I later learned this is almost normal in moderate conservative circles, so nowadays I would not take it personally I was treated this way, but do see it as a defect of a religious system.)

This type of worldliness is exactly what the Bible says will happen when we adopt the false gospel of asceticism that says implementing more external restrictions will lead to more spirituality and holiness. (This does NOT mean that you need to e.g. start watching movies to be more holy - although I have no problem with a discerning, thoughtful enjoyment of that audio-visual format - nor that you can be more worldly and be closer to Christ. No one thinks that). As Col. 2:23 notes, they have an appearance of wisdom, but no real value against fleshly desires. It leads to passing judgement on one another (Rom. 14:13), treating one another with contempt (14:10), and spiritual pride - comparing ourselves among ourselves, concluding people are an utterly lost cause, etc.

At the same time, outward restrictions are helpful.

I think it’s good to take a stance against vaping, drunkenness, and so on. I don’t think such things build Christian life.

I respect a desire to just follow Christ, be more like Christ, etc., and to want others to follow Him. Having that desire does not mean that one has an accurate view of the world. Much like the proverbial blind men feeling different parts of an elephant, people who want to follow Christ exist in many different denominations. Don't despise the faith of the one who left what seemed a dead formalism to find a faith in a church that looks different from yours, even if you personally found that you had to join a more restrictive setting to find what seems to be a serious commitment.

I don’t really hold to an ecumenical view that all Christian denominations are equal. A lot of them are not building faithful Christ followers.

For the record my church is less restrictive when it comes to clothes than yours. One of our ministers used to work with a Beachy preacher from Minerva who really had a problem with our attire. At the time our churches were otherwise quite similar in practice. He eventually went the Charity path and nowadays is a BMA pastor (one I really appreciate, too, by the way). They met up again and our minister asked him what he thought of our attire now, as it hadn’t really changed over the last 20 years, and now his church had less of a “dress code” than ours does.

[ken_sylvania]

Restrictions are made for the purpose of helping people deny themselves of certain things, so as to be able to give one's heart and attention to more important things.

I support this. I think it is best applied to oneself and other likeminded subgroups that may wish to, say, avoid Smartphones, or ice cream, or hunting. Or to do certain other things, read 20 books a year, go to the gym, go to church each time the doors are open, etc.

I don't see Biblical data that such restrictions should be linked to whether or not one is "fellowshipped" with...or the cause of denial of communion of the saints.

I prefer not to commune with people who, for example, carry guns, vote, run for office, etc

Is carrying guns at all problematic for you, or just carrying guns during the communion service?

[GaryK]

The implication, of course, is that to be outwardly more conservative or traditionally "plain" is to have less worldliness and thus more Christlikeness; as if the cut of a man's suit, the amount of buttons on his shirt, or the difference between a knee-length skirt and an ankle-length skirt has anything to do with worldliness.

One of my complaints with moderate conservative groups (particularly Amish Mennonites such as Beachys and other similar groups) is their culture concerning conservative Anabaptism tends to be very, very clothing based. I don’t agree with this either.

I thought you have been making the case the last few days that not being as plain as the previous generations is a sign of transition toward worldliness. I would have taken it that a big part of the plainness you were referring to was about clothing.