“Five-fold ministry”?

[Josh]

Could you explain to us which liturgy, particular church, and/or ethnic group is the “charismatic” one?

[Neto]

Thank you, OJ. That article is helpful. I see in the article that this terminology is re-emerging in what appears to me to be a blending of the Early Church movement, Evangelical and Charismatic practices. It does not seem to be associated with particular denominations but is gaining ground in independent fellowships.

Max, this raises a question in my mind, as to something touching on your personal experience as a Catholic. What was your experience in relating to the charismatic practices adopted by some within the Catholic Church during the 60's and 70's? How open were you and are you to these "manifestations of the Spirit"? (Obviously, you are not required in any way to answer. I do not want to pry into personal matters.)

In my own involvement in the larger 'Charismatic Movement', I sometimes met Catholic Charismatics, and even my paternal grandparents, who were very traditionalist Mennonite Brethren (uncut hair, long sleeve shirts for men, and color restrictions as well, for example) were in some ways influenced by some of this. (Of course we as MBs also have a sort of 'charismatic' history - not 'speaking in tongues', but in a much more 'joyous' expression in worship. Unfortunately it became rather extreme, beating on pots and such like, then came into direct conflict with an opposite strain of thought within MB circles, also rather extreme, that eventually "won out". I wish there would have been a middle of the road path taken, one characterized by mutual acceptance on both sides. This was all in the first 10 to 15 years of MB history, starting in 1860.)

Great question, Neto. I cannot recall the exact year when I first encountered the Catholic Charismatic Movement (their official name). I believe it was either the late 60s or may have been early 70s: my ancient brain is showing it’s age. My impression was that this was a group of Catholics who were seeking an emotional expression of their worship experience.

I am of the “faith and reason” flavor of Catholicism so it was not my cuppa. There are almost as many expressions within Catholicism as there are ethnicities. The Church has 7 different rites with their own liturgies for example so I mentally filed it as another expression of Catholicism.

The CCM still exists today but it is quieter, less emotional. They have weekly prayer groups to intercede for various situations and people. “Spiritual Warfare” is one their favorite themes to fight demons/evil/temptations. The Vatican has a CCM priest among several priests who occasionally give homilies and day retreats to the Pope and Vatican staff. The CCM priest has been there since the 1990s.

All in all, I see the CCM as meeting a need of a subsection of members within the vast diversity that is the Church.

This is possibly outside the scope of this particular discussion, but your comments raise another question in my mind, the continuum between "faith and reason" and "emotional expression in worship". Or is it actually a continuum, something with conflicting values? I wonder if we shouldn't all experience both.

[Neto]

I've heard the term for decades and Ephesians 4:11 as a reference. Also "Full Gospel" ministry teaching. Where we come from, if Ephesians 4:11 is seen as only during Apostolic times, then our churches would see those as missing the full Gospel. I remember an acquaintance I had for awhile, who grew up Amish, family then became. Mennonite then her & her husband left Mennonite and said they were "Full Gospel" now. Five-Fold Ministry.

Where we currently attend, would be considered an Evangelical church, occasionally senior pastor does a Q & A. He read one of the submitted questions asking if he believed in Five-Fold Fold Ministry. Pastor answered he didn't even know what that was. I was kind of surprised fe didn't since I heard it for decades

Seems kind of like a litmus test to see if churches/pastors are enlightened and believe the Full Gospel, if not, avoid those churches-

How does the "Five-Fold" Gospel compare to the "Four Square" Gospel?

[ohio jones]

How does the "Five-Fold" Gospel compare to the "Four Square" Gospel?

Foursquare refers to four aspects of Christ's ministry: Savior, Sanctifier (or in some versions Baptizer), Healer, and King.

[Valerie]

How does the "Five-Fold" Gospel compare to the "Four Square" Gospel?

Foursquare refers to four aspects of Christ's ministry: Savior, Sanctifier (or in some versions Baptizer), Healer, and King.

Score!

[MaxPC]

This is possibly outside the scope of this particular discussion, but your comments raise another question in my mind, the continuum between "faith and reason" and "emotional expression in worship". Or is it actually a continuum, something with conflicting values? I wonder if we shouldn't all experience both.

Often I have pondered the very same thing that you are. At this stage in life I can only surmise it through the Scripture verses RE many gifts and many mansions. As I interpret it, the variety of personality types, the vocations to which they are called, provides the Church with a rich membership who seek to serve Jesus and to spread the Gospel. My personality is grounded in faith and reason because of my strong left brain function and science background. Does it mean I am “better”? I do not think so. It only means that I am equipped for certain missions and tasks that God may use me for.

I am loathe to call the various movements as right or wrong because I do not know how God is using them. I think that God is much more resourceful than I am. I like the concept of the spider web with many strands (movements) reaching out from the center, Jesus, but that is the best description I can come up with on only one cup of coffee. It is a poor description I realize but for now it gives a vague notion.

[MaxPC]

Could you explain to us which liturgy, particular church, and/or ethnic group is the “charismatic” one?

The CCM is a personal expression of prayer-life and devotion. Those who practice it do not have a formal liturgy. Those who prefer this type of prayer life can be found in all 7 Rites of the Catholic Church.

The CCM does have priests who are spiritual advisors. They keep the movement focused on Jesus and Catholic teaching.

[Josh]

Could you explain to us which liturgy, particular church, and/or ethnic group is the “charismatic” one?

The CCM is a personal expression of prayer-life and devotion. Those who practice it do not have a formal liturgy. Those who prefer this type of prayer life can be found in all 7 Rites of the Catholic Church.

The CCM does have priests who are spiritual advisors. They keep the movement focused on Jesus and Catholic teaching.

In what way is charismatic expression "personal prayer life and devotion"? Are you sure we are speaking about the same thing?

[MaxPC]

Could you explain to us which liturgy, particular church, and/or ethnic group is the “charismatic” one?

The CCM is a personal expression of prayer-life and devotion. Those who practice it do not have a formal liturgy. Those who prefer this type of prayer life can be found in all 7 Rites of the Catholic Church.

The CCM does have priests who are spiritual advisors. They keep the movement focused on Jesus and Catholic teaching.

In what way is charismatic expression "personal prayer life and devotion"? Are you sure we are speaking about the same thing?

You may not understand it. Catholics and other sacramental churches understand the distinction between liturgy and private prayer.

[Josh]

You may not understand it. Catholics and other sacramental churches understand the distinction between liturgy and private prayer.

Charismatic Christianity is a distinctly Protestant concept, so I'm asking you to explain how exactly it happens in supposedly Catholic circles.

You mentioned there are many liturgies, so I'm asking what relevance that has to Charismatic "Catholicism". As far as I know, there is no such thing as a Charismatic liturgy.