Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

[Valerie]

I’m saying civility isn’t possible on MN, although it sure would be nice if it were.

I am asking what you think myself and my church could do better, whilst keeping in mind we won’t be adopting a liberal-progressive platform anytime soon.

I don't know if you've noticed Josh,, or chose to ignore it- but there are many on here that are Anabaptists who have actively participated in the topics regarding government/politics- yet you wish to convey it is only those outside of Anabaptism that do-

Yesterday one of my friends who left the Amish long ago but is a strong Christian- posted that the reason he voted for President Trump (or at least the main reason) is, like many of us, because we knew that the Supreme Court would have openings- as we have seen in the past the Supreme Court is the one who legalized abortion, legalized gay marriage- the legalization of sin in a country harms those who depend on their government to make right choices & decisions-
Anyways- so my friend posted about this-

A reply from another, with a last name that is surely Mennonite or Amish said this:

"If we think about it. The Amish voted I Pa. Mi. And Wi. Enough to put those states to Trump. And they don’t usually vote."


So why did the Amish in those 3 states vote for President Trump?
Josh to say only those 'outside' of Conservative Anabaptists care about what's 'legalized' in our nation is apparently a false claim, although it seems to be your opinion but you don't speak for all conservative Anabaptists. In addition to this- when Max didn't want yet another political topic to be started (Dan Z's regarding the decision about the union) you jumped in to defend THAT- why? Because it affects your own people. So when THAT happens, it's okay to endorse government decisions? Well, that is how many Christians believe that since THIS country is a democracy, it is our responsibility to help choose those that would be against laws that legalized sin- which affects children- whom God cares about- and so do we. Just as much as he cares about the Mennonites affected by the Union- or maybe, perhaps- more?

[Josh]

I’m saying civility isn’t possible on MN, although it sure would be nice if it were.

I can be civil, you can, and we can encourage others to be civil. Even when we discuss things we disagree about.

We can politely object to incivility. Most forums that have really good discussion either have a moderator who stops people from being uncivil or a culture where people step in and say it's not cool to be uncivil, applying social pressure. I'd like to see more of that here.

Sure, you and I can (along with a few other members of MN), but then we might as well go and form our own forum with restricted membership.

I'm trying to say that having a civil conversation in MN is nearly impossible.

[GaryK]

And it's not like Christians don't talk about these things all the time. If we do, how should we talk about them? MN is not "American politics", so how do we talk here? That's a choice we can make.

Why is it that, on MN, we mostly talk about societal and moral issues whenever they are hot-button "American politics" issues and not at other times? I think that says a lot. It seems almost like it's assumed that you can't separate these issues from politics. I think it would be great to discuss societal and moral issues without bringing politics into the conversation. Otherwise these discussions on MN pretty much mirror "American politics", only perhaps a bit more "Christianized". "Christianized" "American politics" does not have a very good track record and I don't think "MN Christianized" "American politics" will fare any better.

[Bootstrap]

And it's not like Christians don't talk about these things all the time. If we do, how should we talk about them? MN is not "American politics", so how do we talk here? That's a choice we can make.

Why is it that, on MN, we mostly talk about societal and moral issues whenever they are hot-button "American politics" issues and not at other times? I think that says a lot. It seems almost like it's assumed that you can't separate these issues from politics. I think it would be great to discuss societal and moral issues without bringing politics into the conversation. Otherwise these discussions on MN pretty much mirror "American politics", only perhaps a bit more "Christianized". "Christianized" "American politics" does not have a very good track record and I don't think "MN Christianized" "American politics" will fare any better.

So Christians have nothing to say about really big issues directly related to the things we care most about? Such as gay marriage and refugees? Or we are completely unable to actually discuss these things as Christians? If something really important to Christians shows up in the news, our job as Christians is to shut up?

I don't buy it. If you don't want to be part of such threads, feel free to avoid them. But some of these things really do matter.

But I do think we should discuss these things without attacking each other or questioning each other's motives. Personally, I think that's the litmus test. If we can discuss the topic instead of our suspicions of each other, and we can do it in the fruit of the Spirit, we're on the right track.

What makes this really different from the secular world is that we have a shared identity as Christians that should trump any political identity. So let's approach it that way.

[RZehr]

I think it has more to do with the timing of the conversations than the subject matter. It really shows how much we follow the news and who has our attention.
For example, I haven't heard of any big storms recently, nor have we discussed size and frequency of storms. And yet when one inevitably hits the news, we probably will discuss it, with each side lining up predictably on each side of the debate.
Maybe storms aren't a good example given the climate change thread. But you get my point. We shouldn't be led around by the nose by the news. And yet the news is what we can follow given this forum isn't local, and we are not a real community of believers.

What is a subject that is not in the news?

[GaryK]

And it's not like Christians don't talk about these things all the time. If we do, how should we talk about them? MN is not "American politics", so how do we talk here? That's a choice we can make.

Why is it that, on MN, we mostly talk about societal and moral issues whenever they are hot-button "American politics" issues and not at other times? I think that says a lot. It seems almost like it's assumed that you can't separate these issues from politics. I think it would be great to discuss societal and moral issues without bringing politics into the conversation. Otherwise these discussions on MN pretty much mirror "American politics", only perhaps a bit more "Christianized". "Christianized" "American politics" does not have a very good track record and I don't think "MN Christianized" "American politics" will fare any better.

So Christians have nothing to say about really big issues directly related to the things we care most about? Such as gay marriage and refugees? Or we are completely unable to actually discuss these things as Christians? If something really important to Christians shows up in the news, our job as Christians is to shut up?

I don't buy it. If you don't want to be part of such threads, feel free to avoid them. But some of these things really do matter.

But I do think we should discuss these things without attacking each other or questioning each other's motives. Personally, I think that's the litmus test. If we can discuss the topic instead of our suspicions of each other, and we can do it in the fruit of the Spirit, we're on the right track.

What makes this really different from the secular world is that we have a shared identity as Christians that should trump any political identity. So let's approach it that way.

I think you completely missed my point. I'm actually promoting talking about these things. But we shouldn't wait to talk about them until they are some hot-button political issue. I would love to see us talking about societal and moral issues regardless if it's a hot-button political issue or not. Why current politics is so often the discussion driver for societal and moral discussions on MN is what I'm getting at.

[temporal1]

Page 8 -

A lot of the participants on MN aren’t Mennonite, Anabaptist, nonresistant, part of a nonresistant Church, nor interested in becoming any of those things. It’s impossible to have a discussion or debate in good faith with such people.

the original young CM’s that began MD would not have agreed with your view.
nor has this view been adopted by admin-mods over the years.

you seem to be particularly irritable recently.
are you having problems anyone here could help with? openly or privately?

you, of all people, know this forum has members ready+willing to give of themselves at all times.
correct?

[Josh]

A lot of the participants on MN aren’t Mennonite, Anabaptist, nonresistant, part of a nonresistant Church, nor interested in becoming any of those things. It’s impossible to have a discussion or debate in good faith with such people.

the original young CM’s that began MD would not have agreed with your view. nor has this view been adopted by admin-mods over the years.

temporal1, there are quite a few people participating in these threads who simply do not have an Anabaptist view on much of anything, and are here to promote a different agenda. I don't have a quarrel with Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or evangelical "God-and-country" people, but I do acknowledge we have very different views, and some things aren't fruitful to discuss with them. (And some people of the persuasions I listed above do participate in MN, but do so in a respectful way and avoid constant, endless controversy.)

As far as the "original young CM's that began MD", they aren't around anymore, and don't seem to care about MN much. The view of some is that they aren't really conservative at all anymore. I won't make that judgment, but I will observe that they aren't around anymore and aren't steering the ship anymore.

I have plenty of interaction elsewhere with young CMs (and middle aged CMs, too), who are my friends. We don't spend much time discussing politics, although it does come up from time to time. We tend to focus a lot more on talking about the challenges we are facing in our lives and what the right thing for us to do is. One very big topic lately is smartphone addiction and how we should respond to and deal with that. Another big topic is "WhatsApp" and how appropriate it is for Christians to use.

you seem to be particularly irritable recently.
are you having problems anyone here could help with? openly or privately?

you, of all people, know this forum has members ready+willing to give of themselves at all times.
correct?

temporal1, I don't think it's really fair to take my disagreement with you on this issue and turn into a personal attack against me that I am "having problems" and that I need to go seek help from someone. For what it's worth, I am dealing with some very big problems right now - although they are not personal problems specific to me. A number of other members on MennoNet know what these challenges are. It is not appropriate to discuss it further on MN, other than to say it is a matter that causes me a lot of stress and requires me to spend a lot of time in prayer.

A few people from MN have had good conversations with me, and one in particular has been a supportive friend and ally through this. I rely on the ministers at my home church and the brothers there I have a close friendship with to be the people who help me through this the most, though.

I hope that answers your question.

[Josh]

I don't know if you've noticed Josh,, or chose to ignore it- but there are many on here that are Anabaptists who have actively participated in the topics regarding government/politics- yet you wish to convey it is only those outside of Anabaptism that do-

Valerie, I'm not Amish, and most Old Order Amish that I know would not participate in something like MennoNet.

So why did the Amish in those 3 states vote for President Trump?

I'm not Amish, and I'm not in church or fellowship with them. If I were, I would agitate against voting for the Commander in Chief. In my church, we do not participate in such elections, and generally avoid voting at all. We feel it is wrong to do so because it violates our conscience not to participate in war and the military.

My church does have plenty of ex-Amish in it who feel similarly convicted.

Josh to say only those 'outside' of Conservative Anabaptists care about what's 'legalized' in our nation is apparently a false claim, although it seems to be your opinion but you don't speak for all conservative Anabaptists. In addition to this- when Max didn't want yet another political topic to be started (Dan Z's regarding the decision about the union) you jumped in to defend THAT- why? Because it affects your own people. So when THAT happens, it's okay to endorse government decisions?

I didn't endorse the decision, but am grateful for it. However, if the government hadn't affirmed this, we would continue to live out our convictions to avoid giving money to a union which engages in using force, violence, and/or political action, even if it cost us to do so.

Our church has not agitated or lobbied to have government laws about unions changed. It would be a violation of my conscience, and our church's conscience, to do so. We only feel we should petition the government when we are directly asked to do something that goes against our conscience. Quitting a union job, or not taking a union job in the first place, is something that is acceptable for us to do.

Well, that is how many Christians believe that since THIS country is a democracy, it is our responsibility to help choose those that would be against laws that legalized sin- which affects children- whom God cares about- and so do we. Just as much as he cares about the Mennonites affected by the Union- or maybe, perhaps- more?

If you want to vote, that is between you, your church, and God - it's just not something conservative Anabaptists typically do. I believe God is ultimately in charge of governments and elections.

I believe sin extends to a lot of areas, including things like military service and the use of force, which government has to do. So the idea of making sin "illegal" is one I think is impossible.

[Bootstrap]

I think you completely missed my point.

Sorry about that - and thanks for clarifying. That's very helpful.

I'm actually promoting talking about these things. But we shouldn't wait to talk about them until they are some hot-button political issue. I would love to see us talking about societal and moral issues regardless if it's a hot-button political issue or not. Why current politics is so often the discussion driver for societal and moral discussions on MN is what I'm getting at.

I'm trying to think about that in the context of the wedding cake issue. It became an issue for Christians to discuss precisely because it came up in the news. I mean, before that, I would never have thought Christians might be compelled to take photos or make cakes for gay weddings.

And when it came up, we all had pretty strong feelings about it.

I think that's true of some issues we are discussing in other threads (but I'm trying to stay on topic here).