Dealing with Infractions - Lancaster Conference

[JohnH]

I said *ascetic* rules, by which I meant forbidding marriage and requiring abstention from certain kinds of foods, such as eating meat during Lent. Paul forbids such rules in 1 Tim. 4:3 - they are marks of false teachers. And are you familiar with the "Affair of the Sausages" that launched Zwingli's reformation in 1522? Several of those who participated - associates of Conrad Grebel, though I don't think he participated (he may or may not have been there) - went on a radical path that led them to Anabaptism. This was a precursor to Anabaptism, one of the events that led up to it, and rejection of these kinds of rules regarding meat is perfectly in line with the origins of Anabaptism.

Yes. I disagree with those things (although I do think there is a place that should be made for celibate brethren and sisters, and is something Anabaptists fall short on).

[cmbl]

The best way to promote the law of God (by which I mean New Testament teaching, not Moses' law) is to preach it, proclaim it, and obey it. A church might find it necessary to add additional instruction at times, but it should always be done carefully, where God's law makes it necessary (such as forbidding membership in the Freemasons), and where God's law is not rigid, the instructions should not be rigid.

I am curious whether you would consider these additional instructions to be necessary (as forbidding membership in the Freemasons) or unneccessary:
- Total abstinence from alcoholic beverages
- Not mowing the lawn on Sunday
- No Christmas trees

[cmbl]

One thing that helps is to have far less emphasis on specific clothing styles. Amish have far more lifestyle standards that aren’t just clothes which is why I think they are more successful.

Holdemans have much less emphasis on clothes too. There are cultural customs but they aren’t church standards. Interestingly nearly all people end up conforming to the general cultural customs, but without an enforced discipline.

I think Beachy and related groups suffer from too much focus on clothing. There are a lot of other relevant standards.

As a seeker, I think that many non-Old Order conservative Anabaptist groups dress about a set of fellowship lines more plain than they are. (Or stated the other way, the theology and other lifestyle expectations are about a set of fellowship lines less plain than the dress.)

E.g. ultraconservatives with covering strings and bonnets...and revival meetings and the rapture.
intermediate conservative dress with smartphones (and social media more or less)
fundamental conservatives being described by someone else as "Baptists in denim skirts"...which makes sense to me given that they put Al Mohler articles in their publications.

[MattY]

The best way to promote the law of God (by which I mean New Testament teaching, not Moses' law) is to preach it, proclaim it, and obey it. A church might find it necessary to add additional instruction at times, but it should always be done carefully, where God's law makes it necessary (such as forbidding membership in the Freemasons), and where God's law is not rigid, the instructions should not be rigid.

I am curious whether you would consider these additional instructions to be necessary (as forbidding membership in the Freemasons) or unneccessary:
- Total abstinence from alcoholic beverages
- Not mowing the lawn on Sunday
- No Christmas trees

Unnecessary. But with caveats. (And the three situations are not entirely the same, but I won't go into details here). If you know that there are brothers and sisters who might see it and be offended, then you should avoid it. See Romans 14:

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died.

So there is a responsibility, on the part of one brother, to stop passing judgment on another; but on the other brother, there is a responsibility to avoid offending or distressing the other brother by exercising your freedom.

[JohnH]

One thing that helps is to have far less emphasis on specific clothing styles. Amish have far more lifestyle standards that aren’t just clothes which is why I think they are more successful.

Holdemans have much less emphasis on clothes too. There are cultural customs but they aren’t church standards. Interestingly nearly all people end up conforming to the general cultural customs, but without an enforced discipline.

I think Beachy and related groups suffer from too much focus on clothing. There are a lot of other relevant standards.

As a seeker, I think that many non-Old Order conservative Anabaptist groups dress about a set of fellowship lines more plain than they are. (Or stated the other way, the theology and other lifestyle expectations are about a set of fellowship lines less plain than the dress.)

E.g. ultraconservatives with covering strings and bonnets...and revival meetings and the rapture.
intermediate conservative dress with smartphones (and social media more or less)
fundamental conservatives being described by someone else as "Baptists in denim skirts"...which makes sense to me given that they put Al Mohler articles in their publications.

Of interest is that Holdemans and Apostolic Christians don’t do this; for example, Holdemans are somewhere between ultras and intermediates with a few Old Order characteristics. But their manner of clothing for both is less “plain” than moderates.

[cmbl]

The best way to promote the law of God (by which I mean New Testament teaching, not Moses' law) is to preach it, proclaim it, and obey it. A church might find it necessary to add additional instruction at times, but it should always be done carefully, where God's law makes it necessary (such as forbidding membership in the Freemasons), and where God's law is not rigid, the instructions should not be rigid.

I am curious whether you would consider these additional instructions to be necessary (as forbidding membership in the Freemasons) or unneccessary:
- Total abstinence from alcoholic beverages
- Not mowing the lawn on Sunday
- No Christmas trees

Unnecessary. But with caveats. (And the three situations are not entirely the same, but I won't go into details here). If you know that there are brothers and sisters who might see it and be offended, then you should avoid it

I also think that these are unneccessary. I don't really make a distinction between them. However, there are people in my church who would think that each of them are necessary for the New Testament. I have heard people saying that "wine was not forbidden to Old Testament saints," which I took to imply that they think it is forbidden for New Testament saints. I have heard one minister talking about how the world mows their lawn on Sunday and we might wonder why God doesn't hit them with lightning(*). And one time a minister began reading from a certain passage in Jeremiah and said, "I know what you're all thinking...Christmas trees!" (Um, I was actually thinking, "Ancient Near East idols.")

* If this is the only quote you would hear from this minister, you might think he's pretty far-out. This statement seemed very unusual to me; he's not really far-out.

If you know that there are brothers and sisters who might see it and be offended, then you should avoid it. See Romans 14...

So there is a responsibility, on the part of one brother, to stop passing judgment on another; but on the other brother, there is a responsibility to avoid offending or distressing the other brother by exercising your freedom.

I choose not to do these things because I recognize that Conservative Anabaptism is a package deal, and as a seeker, one must become somewhat Old Order in one's thinking and adopt a "This is our practice" mindset rather than a no-extrabiblical-standards mindset. I don't think I would get very far coming into a Plain church and telling them that they have a responsibility to stop passing judgment on me for doing these things, not that I would want to do that anyway.

The only one of these three that actually bothers me is not being able to mow the lawn on Sunday. Just makes it harder to get stuff done.

[cmbl]

One thing that helps is to have far less emphasis on specific clothing styles. Amish have far more lifestyle standards that aren’t just clothes which is why I think they are more successful.

Holdemans have much less emphasis on clothes too. There are cultural customs but they aren’t church standards. Interestingly nearly all people end up conforming to the general cultural customs, but without an enforced discipline.

I think Beachy and related groups suffer from too much focus on clothing. There are a lot of other relevant standards.

As a seeker, I think that many non-Old Order conservative Anabaptist groups dress about a set of fellowship lines more plain than they are. (Or stated the other way, the theology and other lifestyle expectations are about a set of fellowship lines less plain than the dress.)

E.g. ultraconservatives with covering strings and bonnets...and revival meetings and the rapture.
intermediate conservative dress with smartphones (and social media more or less)
fundamental conservatives being described by someone else as "Baptists in denim skirts"...which makes sense to me given that they put Al Mohler articles in their publications.

Of interest is that Holdemans and Apostolic Christians don’t do this; for example, Holdemans are somewhere between ultras and intermediates with a few Old Order characteristics. But their manner of clothing for both is less “plain” than moderates.

Yes, that's a good note. I was originally going to write "conservative Mennonites" but then I remembered we were talking about Beachys too and went with Anabaptist, thereby falling into doing that thing that Swiss people do, using Anabaptist to mean Swiss Brethren and eliding the Dutch Mennonites, Hutterites, Froehlich groups, Brethren, etc. Sorry.

[JohnH]

Come to think of it, Hutterites express less plain dress when compared to all their other practices, and Bruderhof are barely plain dressed at all (although I content Bruderhof are no longer conservative / plain Anabaptist as the covering is now optional).

The rather staunch emphasis on plain dress but a lack of emphasis on other things seems to be the domain of Amish-Mennonites and of other groups that evolved from Old Mennonites.

[MattY]

I also think that these are unneccessary. I don't really make a distinction between them. However, there are people in my church who would think that each of them are necessary for the New Testament. I have heard people saying that "wine was not forbidden to Old Testament saints," which I took to imply that they think it is forbidden for New Testament saints. I have heard one minister talking about how the world mows their lawn on Sunday and we might wonder why God doesn't hit them with lightning(*). And one time a minister began reading from a certain passage in Jeremiah and said, "I know what you're all thinking...Christmas trees!" (Um, I was actually thinking, "Ancient Near East idols.")

* If this is the only quote you would hear from this minister, you might think he's pretty far-out. This statement seemed very unusual to me; he's not really far-out.

If you know that there are brothers and sisters who might see it and be offended, then you should avoid it. See Romans 14...

So there is a responsibility, on the part of one brother, to stop passing judgment on another; but on the other brother, there is a responsibility to avoid offending or distressing the other brother by exercising your freedom.

I choose not to do these things because I recognize that Conservative Anabaptism is a package deal, and as a seeker, one must become somewhat Old Order in one's thinking and adopt a "This is our practice" mindset rather than a no-extrabiblical-standards mindset. I don't think I would get very far coming into a Plain church and telling them that they have a responsibility to stop passing judgment on me for doing these things, not that I would want to do that anyway.

The only one of these three that actually bothers me is not being able to mow the lawn on Sunday. Just makes it harder to get stuff done.

I love this comment.

I would never tell someone at our church or another Plain church that they have to stop passing judgment on me for doing things either. I suppose I might explain myself or defend my views, but not in a defend-my-rights, you-just-sit-down type of way. Anyway, I've never had to do that since no one has ever told me I've offended them. But if I saw a brother passing judgment on someone else (not on me), it should be my responsibility to privately discuss it with him and try to gently correct him.

I probably wouldn't mow the yard on Sunday anyway. I wouldn't quite feel right doing it, since I was raised not to. But I've worked to change the automatic assumption that pops into my head that if I see someone mowing their yard on Sunday, they must not be a Christian. I've rejected the theological view that the Old Testament Law continues and is basically the same as New Testament teachings (a Reformed view), and that Sunday is our Sabbath.

I bought wine online once and kept it at home, but found that I didn't like it and had to mix it with something. I don't anticipate buying it again. Obviously for some people with alcohol addiction problems, total abstinence is necessary and it would be wrong for them to ever drink it. But I would find it funny for someone to claim that they take New Testament instructions at face value - or that our core values include doing what Jesus did - and then claim that wine is forbidden, when a New Testament verse literally states the opposite AND Jesus literally turned water into wine.

[JohnH]

It takes a certain amount of maturity and submission to be able to recognise that the Bible doesn't teach that I should keep hard drugs like heroin in my home, use them, or keep hard liquor, but yet it is entirely sensible and in fact biblical for a church to forbid its members do such things.