Your best friend's mom ...

[Bootstrap]

I'm only using it because college education was the subject of this thread ...

Not really. To me, this thread is primarily about how your best friend's mother influences you as you grow up. The study measured this influence in terms of college education and family income. But I suspect your best friend's mother - or father - influences you in other ways, too.

I'd be interested in more discussion of those other ways. Particularly in ways that aren't about what anyone thinks is wrong with anyone else. Good influences of any kind. Personal experiences. How you have seen this work out in church settings or your friend group.

And I'm really not that interested in discussion of whether college education is good or not. That's really not the main point of this. Though it's interesting that it's such a hot-button issue, one that might be a great topic for another thread.

Here's the OP again. I should have given more guidance.

Parents, teachers, and family income affect educational and life outcomes for teenagers, but so does their best friend’s mother.

It’s no surprise that parents and teachers affect educational and life outcomes for kids. But the sources of significant influence on young people go beyond that, with research from Hua-Yu Sebastian Cherng, Jessica McCrory Calarco, and Grace Kao finding one surprising category: friends’ mothers.

The result: teens whose best friend’s mother was college-educated were 60 percent more likely to complete college themselves. (It mattered much more if a teen’s own mother had a college degree, yielding 230 percent greater odds of completing college, but that’s less surprising.) The effect of a friend’s mom’s education held up even when controlling for the resources of the teens’ own families.

Family income had a similar, but smaller, effect: the friend’s family income would have to go up by $100,000 to produce the same effect as the friend’s mother having a four-year college degree or beyond.

[Ken]

Little different subject, but I wonder how much the married/non-married, and college/non-college birth rates would look like if we could consider (a) birth control and (c) abortion.
Which group is merely using unnatural methods to mask and "fix" things?

Those are questions that are studied as well. Women with less than a high school education have the highest abortion rates across all age groups and cohorts. And women with at least an undergraduate degree have the lowest abortion rates.

Birth control usage doesn't seem to vary much by education level. Although the type of birth control differs. But that doesn't actually tell you much. Just because a woman is on birth control doesn't mean she is sexually active. For example, my wife's clinic provides a lot of IUDs and Norplant implants for 18-year old college bound girls. That doesn't necessarily mean they are sexually active or are going to be sexually active in college. It means their mothers want to make absolutely sure they don't get pregnant in college.

[Ken]

I'm only using it because college education was the subject of this thread ...

Not really. To me, this thread is primarily about how your best friend's mother influences you as you grow up. The study measured this influence in terms of college education and family income. But I suspect your best friend's mother - or father - influences you in other ways, too.

I'd be interested in more discussion of those other ways.

And I'm really not that interested in discussion of whether college education is good or not. That's really not the main point of this. Though it's interesting that it's such a hot-button issue, one that might be a great topic for another thread.

Parents, teachers, and family income affect educational and life outcomes for teenagers, but so does their best friend’s mother.

It’s no surprise that parents and teachers affect educational and life outcomes for kids. But the sources of significant influence on young people go beyond that, with research from Hua-Yu Sebastian Cherng, Jessica McCrory Calarco, and Grace Kao finding one surprising category: friends’ mothers.

The result: teens whose best friend’s mother was college-educated were 60 percent more likely to complete college themselves. (It mattered much more if a teen’s own mother had a college degree, yielding 230 percent greater odds of completing college, but that’s less surprising.) The effect of a friend’s mom’s education held up even when controlling for the resources of the teens’ own families.

Family income had a similar, but smaller, effect: the friend’s family income would have to go up by $100,000 to produce the same effect as the friend’s mother having a four-year college degree or beyond.

I personally think this is mostly a case of correlation without causation.

If your best friend's mother attended college then your best friend is much more likely to attend college. Which means you are probably in a larger friend group of college-bound kids. Which also means you are probably taking college prep classes, attending a HS where college is the norm, living in a neighborhood where college attendance is the norm, and so forth.

To the extent that there is causation it probably runs in the other direction. If a child attends college then it is more likely that his/her best friend in high school also attended college. Which also makes it likely that the best friend's mom also attended college.

[R7ehr]

Little different subject, but I wonder how much the married/non-married, and college/non-college birth rates would look like if we could consider (a) birth control and (c) abortion.
Which group is merely using unnatural methods to mask and "fix" things?

Those are questions that are studied as well. Women with less than a high school education have the highest abortion rates across all age groups and cohorts. And women with at least an undergraduate degree have the lowest abortion rates.

Birth control usage doesn't seem to vary much by education level. Although the type of birth control differs. But that doesn't actually tell you much. Just because a woman is on birth control doesn't mean she is sexually active.

How many abortions have college educated women have by the age of, I don’t know, 25, versus how many abortions a no college woman has by 25?

If teenagers are getting abortions, obviously they are not yet college educated. It’s a self selected group. For instance, a 16 year old could get an abortion as a “non-college” statistic, but then go on to college.

[Ken]

Little different subject, but I wonder how much the married/non-married, and college/non-college birth rates would look like if we could consider (a) birth control and (c) abortion.
Which group is merely using unnatural methods to mask and "fix" things?

Those are questions that are studied as well. Women with less than a high school education have the highest abortion rates across all age groups and cohorts. And women with at least an undergraduate degree have the lowest abortion rates.

Birth control usage doesn't seem to vary much by education level. Although the type of birth control differs. But that doesn't actually tell you much. Just because a woman is on birth control doesn't mean she is sexually active.

How many abortions have college educated women have by the age of, I don’t know, 25, versus how many abortions a no college woman has by 25?

If teenagers are getting abortions, obviously they are not yet college educated. It’s a self selected group. For instance, a 16 year old could get an abortion as a “non-college” statistic, but then go on to college.

That is what the "across all age groups and cohorts" qualifier means in the data blurb that I copied. It means that high-school dropouts are more likely to get abortions at any age, in their teens and in their 20s or 30s. Why is that the case? I dunno. probably a combination of irresponsibility, poverty, and low marriage rates for that group of women. If you want to really drill down with a fine-tooth comb, the highest abortion rates are for uneducated and unmarried Black women and girls. Uneducated and unmarried Hispanic women and girls would be second. by contrast, college educated women of all races and ethnicities are way down on the list.

[JohnH]

College ATTENDANCE is the exception to those trends.

No it isn't. First of all, "online college" exists now which doesn't have much social engagement at all. Despite my best efforts, some friends of mine (particularly veterans) keep choosing this option.

Secondly, male participation in college is plummeting, which means even if women go to college, there won't be enough men for them to meet. And the trend of men not going to college shows no signs of declining.

Engagement in community clubs like the Elks and Rotary, church attendance

Church attendance actually is now ticking the other direction (at least for Gen Z's).

I also think I know what college is like today.

I think it is more accurate to say "I know what things are like inside the upper-middle-class bubble I exist in". What you described is not at all the norm across society right now - and this subject has been intensely studied and debated.

[JohnH]

Here's the OP again. I should have given more guidance.

Parents, teachers, and family income affect educational and life outcomes for teenagers, but so does their best friend’s mother.

Your best friend's mother is simply going to be someone who has similar class to your own (on average). Obviously, social class is a predictor of life outcomes. Measuring your best friend's mother is a way to assess someone's social class.

To use the "wet streets cause rain" analogy, we can also determine that wet streetlights are associated with rain.

[JohnH]

Those are questions that are studied as well. Women with less than a high school education have the highest abortion rates across all age groups and cohorts. And women with at least an undergraduate degree have the lowest abortion rates.

Yet they have the highest birth rates!

Birth control usage doesn't seem to vary much by education level. Although the type of birth control differs. But that doesn't actually tell you much. Just because a woman is on birth control doesn't mean she is sexually active. For example, my wife's clinic provides a lot of IUDs and Norplant implants for 18-year old college bound girls. That doesn't necessarily mean they are sexually active or are going to be sexually active in college. It means their mothers want to make absolutely sure they don't get pregnant in college.

The idea someone willingly would get an IUD (a quite painful procedure) who isn't planning to be sexual active is utterly laughable.

[Ken]

Those are questions that are studied as well. Women with less than a high school education have the highest abortion rates across all age groups and cohorts. And women with at least an undergraduate degree have the lowest abortion rates.

Yet they have the highest birth rates!

Birth control usage doesn't seem to vary much by education level. Although the type of birth control differs. But that doesn't actually tell you much. Just because a woman is on birth control doesn't mean she is sexually active. For example, my wife's clinic provides a lot of IUDs and Norplant implants for 18-year old college bound girls. That doesn't necessarily mean they are sexually active or are going to be sexually active in college. It means their mothers want to make absolutely sure they don't get pregnant in college.

The idea someone willingly would get an IUD (a quite painful procedure) who isn't planning to be sexual active is utterly laughable.

Yes, the same population of poor, uneducated, and predominantly minority girls and women can have BOTH high abortion rates and high rates of single motherhood. Can you think of some reasons for why that might be the case? Try hard.

And yes, there are lots of middle class college educated women who send their daughters to college with permanent or passive forms of birth control, even if the girl doesn't have a boyfriend and isn't' necessarily planning to be sexually active. You apparently don't travel in those circles. That means IUDs or implants. Some are on the pill, but that requires more diligence. Because I promise you that the last thing your typical middle class college educated "helicopter" mom (or dad) wants is to see her freshman daughter come home from college pregnant. Norplant or the equivalent is probably the first choice. But because some women have side effects, non-hormonal choices like IUDs are also used.

[JohnH]

I suppose Amish and Mennonites think differently

We do not think we need to somehow inoculate our 18 year olds against getting pregnant

We would consider fornication a far graver problem than a pregnancy. Babies and children are a blessing. Fornication and barrenness are a curse.