The cape dress: Its origins and evolution over the ages

[Ernie]

Is this only an expectation you have of your young women? Or in your church and in your family do you ALSO teach your 15 year old boys that how they dress is a reflection of what is happening in the heart and that they can find "communion with God as they adorn themselves inwardly and outwardly?"

I don't have sons, but yes, this topic is also addressed to young men by dad's and by others in the church.

Secondly, the term "modesty" has two meanings in English. When Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:9 "Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire,"

Do you think he is using the term "modesty" in the the sense of being humble and not showing wealth? Which would be consistent with a vast number of Jesus' teachings about wealth such as "And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Or do you think he is using the term "modesty" in the modern sense of not being provocative towards men? And which of those two meanings of the word "modesty" do you think is more reflective of the original Greek and the intent of this passage?

I assume that the aim of I Timothy is likely focusing on humility and not showing wealth or dressing flamboyantly. I don't know if Paul had any of the "not being provocative towards men" in mind or not.

[Ernie]

And Ken, will you be answering any of the other questions I asked?

[Ernie]

And here is an outline of what I taught about personal appearance to both young men and young women at Calvary Bible School years ago.
https://churchplantersforum.org/wp-cont ... -Class.pdf

I'm glad to discuss this document further with anyone on MN.
Is there is anything in this handout that you have questions about or wonder what I am referring to? Any disagreements? Any suggestions?

[Ernie]

Regarding modesty...

Here are various definitions for which I use the word "modesty"
1. Not wearing costly array
2. Dressing humbly, simply, and without ostentation
3. Covering the body
4. Wearing loose clothing and clothing that helps conceal a person's figure

Ken, I am curious if you teach these same values to your daughters, or are some of these neither here nor there to you?

[Ernie]

Here is how I personally apply the teachings on modesty. I am aware that some of this could feel rather arbitrary, but it is what I have concluded from two millenniums of Christian history on this topic. I think everybody has an internal guide for where they draw the line. I think the practices of the surrounding society can sometimes mess with the internal guide that God wants us to have. So while I don’t believe that everyone needs to draw the line where I do, neither do I think that all attempts to be modest are equally valid.

1. Strait cut suit coats can be quite expensive (especially if they have a frock tail) and I think such coats fit the definition of costly array. If a church wants a specific identifier for it’s men, a black or navy-shirt made of heavy fabric and a mandarin collar would easily fit the bill, without needing to pay hundreds of dollars for a suit. I found myself in such a dilemma when I was preparing for our wedding day, so my mother bought me a coat because she wanted me to have a new one.
There are lots of ways to spend money on clothing that is costly -whether particular articles or the sheer volume of articles.
2. Avoid glitter, colors that draw attention, or anything else that is ostentatious in a particular culture.
3. I think it is good to cover everything below the neck, above the elbows, and above the ankles.
4. Avoid clothing that makes certain parts of the body more pronounced or more attractive. Don’t wear clothing that when viewed from a distance, gives people the impression that some parts of the body are not covered.

[Josh]

Avoiding suit coats altogether would be the plain, simple, and modest thing to do. (Amish style jackets and dress jackets would fit the bill, but buying a suit coat at JC Penney and then altering it does not like up with the scriptural principles laid out above.)

I personally think hand making clothes in the home sphere from sustainably sourced fabrics is a moral imperative, as the garment industry is rife with slavery, and mass produced plastic clothes are one of the worst sources of microplastic pollution. They also wear out quickly and depend on unsustainable fossil fuels.

As an alternative to that, buying very inexpensive second hand garments seems morally acceptable to me. Even if made with slave labour, buying a T shirt for $3 seems much less morally dubious than buying expensive new clothes.

[Neto]

I am probably not considered to be "Plain" by many on this forum, but I would say that I have "lived out a plain life style". I am 68, and I have only had three new suits in my entire life. (the first one my parents bought for me when I graduated HS, then I bought one when my wife & I married, and the last one I bought when our daughter got married. I don't know where the first one fell in terms of average cost, but the latter one was certainly not "hundreds of dollars" - it might have been as much as 120 or so.) All of the rest of my suits were from second-hand stores or hand-me-downs. The only straight cut I have had was converted by one of the older sisters in the church, using a suit I had received for free at a place that gave clothing to active missionaries. And she didn't charge anything for the conversion. Suits are not expensive if you do not insist on having the latest, and new. (I have also been fortunate in that I can still fit in most of the clothing sizes I've worn since my early 20's. Just cannot fit in the size 29 waist pants anymore. Now I'm up to 31.)

[Sudsy]

I think the very fact there is so much conversation regarding the outside of the cup rather than the inside of the cup could be a similar problem to what Jesus brought up to the Pharisees. They tried to look sanctified on the outside and they tried to make disciples like themselves and Jesus pointed out that 'First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean' Matthew 23:26. Jesus put the priority on first dealing with issues of the heart (must be born again) and Paul made a similar statement of what he said was of first importance and that is a belief in Jesus that changes the heart. 1 Cor 15:3.

In my background there were some who followed the expectations for the outside of the cup to belong and later on it proved to not be that they were doing these things from a changed heart. They were not serving Christ but rather serving themselves and what they could get from it. I think these are like the weeds Jesus spoke of in the field and that at judgment day they will be sorted out.

Anyway back to I Timothy 2:9,10, I don't believe Paul was talking about humility but rather he was talking primarily about what a Christian woman should be known for and it wasn't for her outward appearance (and he gave examples) but rather for what she did (good deeds) which is stated as being proper/appropriate/attractive. I'm always surprised how often this 'but' and what follows gets very little attention regarding what is to be foremost in how a Christian woman is viewed. Instead things like not wearing a gold wedding band, etc., adornments, gets all the attention.

Personally I don't see the NT using outward adornments as a main means of bringing people to salvation. But our treatment and love toward sinners is huge and Jesus demonstrated how to do this. I believe people that do wear uniforms like the Salvation Army and other holiness type groups can still reach the lost with their unique outward appearances and my question remains and what groups are doing this and how are they doing it ? Is salvation a primary concern that results in ways of being sanctified ? Or are some putting the cart before the horse and trying to get people to appear a certain way and perhaps eventually they will have a heart changed by God. I guess some believe that if you dress and try to act like a Christian that eventually you will be born again. I'm not convinced this is NT evangelism.

[Ken]

And Ken, will you be answering any of the other questions I asked?

I've kind of lost track of which questions I've answered and didn't answer. But here goes.

As a parent I am well aware that my daughters spend their public lives under the "male gaze" so to speak and are constantly judged by what they are wearing. That is the world that we live in and something they pretty much become aware of themselves by ages 8-10 or so if not earlier. My wife is frankly more involved in picking their clothes when they were young and providing fashion advice and shopping assistance today.

We teach them to dress appropriately for the situation which means different things for school, work, soccer, weekends, dates, and church. The "uniform" they wear to school (jeans, sneakers, hoodie or sweater) may not be appropriate for church or work in a professional setting. My wife (who was raised Catholic) expects them to dress up a bit more for church as a matter of respect for the occasion and surroundings. Which means something different for each girl. The oldest was more of a girly girl and would go with nice dresses and such. The younger two less so and if my wife buys them dresses they mostly stay in their closets unused but they will grudgingly put on dressier slacks, blouse, and shoes and put their hair back a bit nicer. But they aren't taught that wearing a nicer dress (or dress in general) is going to bring them closer to God or anything of that sort.

The oldest went through a rebellious phase in middle school and early high school in Texas and wanted to push the envelope with school dress. Mostly ripped jeans, leggings, spaghetti tops, etc. My wife got tired of fighting with her every morning and took to calling the school secretary to have her "dress coded" since the school had a strict dress code. Which meant getting called down to the office and being asked to change into a set of school athletic sweats for the remainder of the school day. She wasn't the only parent who did that. Kids could sometimes skate through the whole school day if individual teachers weren't rigidly enforcing the dress code, but not if your mom turned you in and you got called down to the office. By the later high school years she grew out of it and was back to normal school appropriate wear.

The younger two are more feminist social justice types who are not into dressing provocatively and not interested in attracting unwanted attention from men so they have never been problematic when it comes to dressing in an immodest way in the provocative sense of the term. They are both anti-fashion and have written school papers on subjects like the environmental and social scourge that is the "fast fashion" industry and the negative influence of social media on the self-worth of girls. They like going "thrifting" and finding cheap clothing and so have the modesty thing down in the other meaning of the term without my or my wife's help. If my wife bought one of them an expensive sweater or something, she might get a lecture about exploited garment workers in Bangladesh and then the expensive sweater would sit in the closet mostly unworn while the $5 one from Goodwill stays in heavy rotation.

I am also aware that dress is part of how they express themselves as individuals and so pretty much don't care or get involved in their clothing decisions since they generally have no problem being modest in both senses of the word. Neither does my wife other then for things like Christmas gifts of sweaters and such. They all have jobs and buy their own clothes. The middle one is more outdoorsy and studying biology and leans towards more colorful outdoorsy fleece looks (think REI) while the other one leans to darker neutrals and blacks and wants to study psychology so is a little more "urban" looking. I don't think those individual style choices have the slightest thing to do with their value as individuals and Christians.

Generally speaking, as girls and women they have to navigate a public world in which they are constantly being observed and judged by men (and women) and by now they know this inherently and I don't have to tell them. But I think home, school, and church should at least be "safe spaces" where they can relax a bit and not have to face constant judgment about their appearance. So they most definitely don't need male bishops or deacons or pastors wives or school administrators hassling them about their clothing choices as long as they are not being immodest and generally dressing appropriately to the occasion.

Does that answer your questions or am I off on a different tangent?

[steve-in-kville]

Regarding modesty...

Here are various definitions for which I use the word "modesty"
1. Not wearing costly array
2. Dressing humbly, simply, and without ostentation
3. Covering the body
4. Wearing loose clothing and clothing that helps conceal a person's figure

Ken, I am curious if you teach these same values to your daughters, or are some of these neither here nor there to you?

^^^ I like Ernie's description.