The Josh we don't want to hear about

[joshuabgood]

I am readingj currently, From Genesis to Junia by Preston Sprinkle.

In the book he notes that Hebrew world translated Helpmeet, is actually almost always used in the Bible to describe God as man's helper. So to assume some sort of subordination from this word really doesn't follow. A woman is a helper to a man like God is a helper to Israel.

[mike]

I decided to think about this for a while before posting but this touches on ideas that have been forming in my mind for a long time. The cultural aspects that I suspect contribute to Dugger family problems center around a concept I think of as patriarchy, when the thinking, passions and goals of men are placed above women and children. When women and children are viewed as support to help men achieve their dreams, they become vulnerable. I've seen this in families in real life and the number of abuse cases they produced is unfortunately more than zero. I've seen girls doing all the housework while their brothers slack about like little kings.

I'm not totally sure why, but I tend to cringe at the use of the term 'patriarchy.' I've not been exposed much to people who actually use it to describe their viewpoint; it seems it is most often used as a pejorative by people who don't really support biblical teaching on gender roles as taught for example by Paul in the NT. And so although there are legitimate critiques to make of the worldview that is held by people like the Duggars, I tend to discount some of those voices because they don't seem to come from a place that respects biblical principles.

I don't look at your critique in that way; I agree with your specific arguments such as girls having to do all the housework, and men being valued above women and so forth.

Paul, while teaching that God is head of Christ, who is head of man, who is head of woman, and that women should not teach in the church assembly, also teaches that men and women have equal standing before God and so forth.

[barnhart]

I'm not totally sure why, but I tend to cringe at the use of the term 'patriarchy.' I've not been exposed much to people who actually use it to describe their viewpoint; it seems it is most often used as a pejorative by people who don't really support biblical teaching on gender roles as taught for example by Paul in the NT.

I'm open to a better term.

[barnhart]

I am readingj currently, From Genesis to Junia by Preston Sprinkle.

In the book he notes that Hebrew world translated Helpmeet, is actually almost always used in the Bible to describe God as man's helper. So to assume some sort of subordination from this word really doesn't follow. A woman is a helper to a man like God is a helper to Israel.

I was going to raise this point as a response to Neto but you beat me to it. More important is the passages from Paul about the relationships between men and women which can seem to have a real clarity but comparing them with the actual examples in the New testament on how women were integrated into the work of the church leave me wondering how to put the two together.

[barnhart]

In addition to what you wrote, I think harm is often done to children who are raised as celebrities, as public role models, or as public influencers. They can view themselves as something special or that they deserve things that others don't. I think it messes with the normal innocent development of children.

Yes. This is one reason I tried to use the broader term "culture" in my original critique, there are multiple contributing factors. Another I'm not quite sure about but there might be some truth in it is an absolute form of certainty and calling from God such that laws viewed as obstacles to be ignored or circumvented.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I'm not totally sure why, but I tend to cringe at the use of the term 'patriarchy.' I've not been exposed much to people who actually use it to describe their viewpoint; it seems it is most often used as a pejorative by people who don't really support biblical teaching on gender roles as taught for example by Paul in the NT.

I'm open to a better term.

Gothardism. Pure poison to any group that embraces it.

Charity was this thinly disguised.

[joshuabgood]

I am readingj currently, From Genesis to Junia by Preston Sprinkle.

In the book he notes that Hebrew world translated Helpmeet, is actually almost always used in the Bible to describe God as man's helper. So to assume some sort of subordination from this word really doesn't follow. A woman is a helper to a man like God is a helper to Israel.

I was going to raise this point as a response to Neto but you beat me to it. More important is the passages from Paul about the relationships between men and women which can seem to have a real clarity but comparing them with the actual examples in the New testament on how women were integrated into the work of the church leave me wondering how to put the two together.

I would highly recommend the book I referenced earlier, From Genesis to Junia. Preston Sprinkle is fully committed to biblicism (popular in some Mennonite circles for his book "Fight" advocating for suffering love) and he does a thorough examination of gender "roles" as it were. He doesn't land where W Grudem, or the new Calvinist, unabashed patriarch bro's do (who yes speak of spiritually disciplining their wives etc - they have a strong presence on Twitter/X), suffice it to say.

One can make their own discernments regarding his exegesis, but it seems pretty compelling to me.

https://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Junia-Ho ... 0830785809

Starting from a place of genuine searching, bestselling author Preston Sprinkle challenges assumptions and models gracious theological inquiry in this thoughtful exploration of what the Bible says about women in church leadership.

What does the Bible really say about women serving in positions of leadership in the church? It’s one of the church’s most debated and divisive topics. Many Christians read Scripture in light of preconceived conclusions, rather than engaging in a patient and thorough study of what the Bible actually says.

From Genesis to Junia offers something rare: an honest journey through Scripture that begins with questions rather than answers. With theological rigor and a pastor’s heart, Preston Sprinkle opens the Bible with fresh eyes and invites us along as he examines key passages from Genesis to Revelation―weighing historical context, interacting with a variety of scholarly perspectives, and holding familiar views up to Scripture. This informative and spiritually profound book provides:

A respectful challenge to both complementarian and egalitarian assumptions
Insightful analysis of texts such as 1 Corinthians 11, Romans 16, and 1 Timothy 2
A model for navigating controversial topics in the church
This open-hearted approach to a complex issue offers a healthy example for dialoguing about tough theological questions. Readers will walk away not with superficial answers but with biblical confidence, deeper understanding, and a gracious posture for engaging with others.

[JohnH]

joshuabgood, Preston Sprinkle 100% supports ordaining women as pastors, bishops, elders, and anything else. His position is anti-biblical and goes against biblical teaching and is entirely incompatible with plain Anabaptism.

I am appalled you would promote his book on as in any way appropriate for conservative Anabaptists to be influenced by, and the fact you are influenced by it says a lot about the direction in which you are going.

Do you support ordaining female pastors, bishops, ministers, and elders, or not?

[joshuabgood]

joshuabgood, Preston Sprinkle 100% supports ordaining women as pastors, bishops, elders, and anything else. His position is anti-biblical and goes against biblical teaching and is entirely incompatible with plain Anabaptism.

I am appalled you would promote his book on as in any way appropriate for conservative Anabaptists to be influenced by, and the fact you are influenced by it says a lot about the direction in which you are going.

Do you support ordaining female pastors, bishops, ministers, and elders, or not?

I didn't read where he concluded what your summary notes...but maybe I missed something.

[JohnH]

joshuabgood, Preston Sprinkle 100% supports ordaining women as pastors, bishops, elders, and anything else. His position is anti-biblical and goes against biblical teaching and is entirely incompatible with plain Anabaptism.

I am appalled you would promote his book on as in any way appropriate for conservative Anabaptists to be influenced by, and the fact you are influenced by it says a lot about the direction in which you are going.

Do you support ordaining female pastors, bishops, ministers, and elders, or not?

I didn't read where he concluded what your summary notes...but maybe I missed something.

Dude, Sprinkle has fully endorsed ordaining women to all church leadership functions. I assume you've read the book you just promoted where he makes the case for that exact thing.

If you want to hear him speak it in his own words, see


In particular starting around 9:09