Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[temporal1]

When I post a link to a news article, all I believe without question is that the report was made. I have no way of confirming whether the reports are true. Reporters aren't God. People and nations are devious in the information they release. Reporters have their own agenda. Always been that way. People will believe what they want to believe.

Yet, your opinion comes through your posts.

I have biases

i think mike is on the right path.

one thing that will never be known, 1) “what if” the West had not interferred, might Russia+Ukraine have found agreement before bloodshed? or, 2) if NATO had not expanded over the years, might Russia have not advanced to begin?

[Dan Z]

Ya'll crack me up. We won't know the truth and there is no way to know the truth. Ukraine could easily take pictures of Chinese weapons and claim whatever they wanted.

The Russians historically believed the opposite of what the media said because they lied so regularly, we on the other hand swallow it whole without question.

I disagree. I think you can get a pretty good idea of what's happening if you:

• 1) look toward sources with a good track record of journalistic integrity,
  2) vary your sources to account for potential ideological biases, and
  3) discount government and opinion sources susceptible to outright propaganda or ideological motivation.

The Ukraine tragedy is on display for all to see (and some to spin), and for humanity's sake we can't ignore it. Throwing up our hands and saying we can't know anything is both lazy and cynical (not meaning this personally Soloist) - and this leaves us susceptible to either indifference or error, because as we cherry-pick sources, we potentially let ideology drive who we trust rather than a quest for truth. The information age has definitely made knowing truth more difficult, and more work for sure - but I believe a good approximation of the truth is still knowable.

[Josh]

Russia is currently a terrifying example of an economy being brutalized, and China has got to be watching that carefully.

Why does Russia deserve to have their economy brutalized, almost exclusively affecting the normal citizens (it's almost impossible to starve the military of a country that grows the majority of their own food), but the US does not deserve to be sanctioned for the war crimes we have committed, and continue to commit to this day?

I've seen a lot of support for the sanctions on this thread, and it doesn't seem very consistent.

I don't see how else the West can respond to Russia's wanton invasion and destruction of their neighbor (and the death and humanitarian crisis that has followed). Direct military engagement with Russia and its nuclear arsenal is out - yet doing nothing while Russia invades would also be unacceptable. What do you think would be the appropriate response to Russian aggression?

What would be the appropriate response to American or Western aggression?

Keep in mind we (we as in America) have managed to kill a huge number of people in Iraq and Afghanistan. Way beyond anything Russia’s doing.

[Soloist]

I disagree. I think you can get a pretty good idea of what's happening if you:

• 1) look toward sources with a good track record of journalistic integrity,
  2) vary your sources to account for potential ideological biases, and
  3) discount government and opinion sources susceptible to outright propaganda or ideological motivation.

The Ukraine tragedy is on display for all to see (and some to spin), and for humanity's sake we can't ignore it. Throwing up our hands and saying we can't know anything is both lazy and cynical (not meaning this personally Soloist) - and this leaves us susceptible to either indifference or error, because as we cherry-pick sources, we potentially let ideology drive who we trust rather than a quest for truth. The information age has definitely made knowing truth more difficult, and more work for sure - but I believe a good approximation of the truth is still knowable.

I disagree with what you would consider journalistic integrity. Your second point, sure. Last point, if it considers both sides subject to that propaganda sure.

We has humans have ignored many tragedies and many wars. What makes this one more significant then any of the multiple wars taking place currently in our world?
I'm cynical but I served in our military. I know things that you would likely dismiss as lies or propaganda from America's enemies. I have a great deal of skepticism that our media isn't simply publishing what sells. Namely, bad news sells and good news doesn't, but more so, when our military bribes CNN to not publish something it calls into question the unbias aspect of news. Obviously it was CNN and they already are not the best source but how did we manage reporters in Vietnam? embedded reporters tend to report more favorably on their own "team" they are assigned to.
If you've read my posts, I've mentioned in several locations we should take advantage of this invasion of Ukraine by a foreign power and up our witnessing and support for the refugees.

Now lets take the scenario in question. The US government says "Russia begs China for help" Russia says "нет" China says "不"
Oh well now who do we believe? a Russian in classic form likely believes Russia is begging for help if the government is denying it. The China man (beats me) and the US citizen believes our Government. Now these News companies, lets say they have journalistic integrity and approach this story that cannot be confirmed because it would to quote the government "reveal classified sources" is going to run this article. Why would the US say this? demoralizing of the Russian forces and embolden the Ukrainian forces. Now the reasons don't make it false but if you consider this, there is no actual way to know what is true in this given situation.
It would be like someone saying "this man raped me" and the man saying "I did not" The man has a poor reputation for lying but the court wants evidence. The assumed raped victim says "there is proof but you have to trust me and not trust him" Same basic scenario going on here and there is no true way to know who is telling the truth. Now when the baby is born, a DNA test could be ran and likewise when Chinese weapons start appearing... Until this happens, its hearsay and gossip. None of this discredits the evil actions Russia is taking by invading but I will not choose sides in this war, or in any war. I belong to a different kingdom.

[Ken]

Why does Russia deserve to have their economy brutalized, almost exclusively affecting the normal citizens (it's almost impossible to starve the military of a country that grows the majority of their own food), but the US does not deserve to be sanctioned for the war crimes we have committed, and continue to commit to this day?

I've seen a lot of support for the sanctions on this thread, and it doesn't seem very consistent.

I don't see how else the West can respond to Russia's wanton invasion and destruction of their neighbor (and the death and humanitarian crisis that has followed). Direct military engagement with Russia and its nuclear arsenal is out - yet doing nothing while Russia invades would also be unacceptable. What do you think would be the appropriate response to Russian aggression?

What would be the appropriate response to American or Western aggression?

Keep in mind we (we as in America) have managed to kill a huge number of people in Iraq and Afghanistan. Way beyond anything Russia’s doing.

Same thing. The rest of the world should have sanctioned the US for its invasion of Iraq. At least the second invasion under GW Bush which was unjustified on any grounds and most certainly an "illegal" war.

Frankly economic sanctions serve two purposes.

The first is to try to elicit change on the part of the government being sanctioned. This actually rarely works and countries can go for decades under steep sanctions without really changing their ways as has been the case with Venezuela, Iran, and North Korea.

The second purpose is to simply make the moral statement that we will not subsidize this sort of aggression through our tax dollars and trade. Essentially the nation-state equivalent to someone refusing to pay income tax to avoid supporting the Pentagon. We may not get Russia to change course, but at least US investments are not fueling and subsidizing their war.

[Dan Z]

A very brave and heartfelt statement!

Russian Evangelical LeaderAppologized to Ukrainian Christians

In the highest-profile statement yet of its kind, the leader of the Russian Evangelical Alliance has announced his “bitterness and regret” over decisions taken by his government.

Will it be enough to rebuild bridges with fellow Ukrainian believers across the border?

“I mourn what my country has done in its recent military invasion of another sovereign country, Ukraine,” stated REA general secretary Vitaly Vlasenko in a March 12 open letter. “In the worst-case scenario, I could not imagine what is now being observed.”...

[barnhart]

A very brave and heartfelt statement!

Russian Evangelical LeaderAppologized to Ukrainian Christians

In the highest-profile statement yet of its kind, the leader of the Russian Evangelical Alliance has announced his “bitterness and regret” over decisions taken by his government.

Will it be enough to rebuild bridges with fellow Ukrainian believers across the border?

“I mourn what my country has done in its recent military invasion of another sovereign country, Ukraine,” stated REA general secretary Vitaly Vlasenko in a March 12 open letter. “In the worst-case scenario, I could not imagine what is now being observed.”...

I wonder how this man's life will change.

[mike]

Is it any wonder that the west is constantly dealing with an influx of legal and illegal immigration. For people who live in parts of the world where there is the constant shadow of this kind of instability, it’s no wonder why many would choose to invest their future elsewhere.

[Ken]

Is it any wonder that the west is constantly dealing with an influx of legal and illegal immigration. For people who live in parts of the world where there is the constant shadow of this kind of instability, it’s no wonder why many would choose to invest their future elsewhere.

It isn't just Ukraine.

I have both Russian and Ukrainian students in my classes. I was talking to one of my Russian students today and asking about his family. He only has cousins left in Russia, the rest of his immediate family is here. He says his cousins are all leaving Russia. They are traveling east and crossing the border into Kazakhstan where they plan to fly onward to India or London I think and then possibly the US if they can. The US family will be wiring them money as soon as they are out of Russia so they can continue onwards.

The consensus in his family is that Russia is no longer a functional place to live for religious and economic reasons. They are Baptists not Orthodox and fear religious persecution as well as economic problems.

[Szdfan]

An editor for Russian state television protested on air during a news program today.

https://apple.news/AFXKKiA9URo6QUuq6sgHcRA

An employee on Russia’s state Channel One television has interrupted the channel’s main news programme with an extraordinary protest against Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

Marina Ovsyannikova, an editor at Channel One, burst on to the set of the live broadcast of the nightly news on Monday evening, shouting: “Stop the war. No to war.”

She also held a sign saying: “Don’t believe the propaganda. They’re lying to you here.” It was signed in English: “Russians against the war.”

OVD-Info said that Ovsyannikova was arrested shortly after her protest and was being held at the Ostankino television centre. Pavel Chikov, head of of the Agora human rights group, later said Ovsyannikova had been arrested and taken to a Moscow police station.

She could face prison time under a newly introduced Russian legislation that criminalised spreading so-called “fake news” about the Russian military. Those found guilty under the law could face up to 15 years in jail.
Ovsyannikova could also face legal consequences for encouraging “civil unrest” by telling Russians to protest.

A law enforcement source told TASS that Ovsyannikova could be charged under legislation banning public acts that aim to “discredit the use of Russia’s armed forces.”

Her statement marks the first time that an employee from Russian state media has publicly denounced the war as the country continues its crackdown on anti-war dissent. So strict is the current wave 0f censorship that other news programmes blurred out the message on Ovsyannikova’s sign in their own reports on the incident.