CAM Molestation Issue

[Pelerin]

I've seen an independently audited annual financial report they put out. This was 10+ years ago, not sure what the availability of it is. Not sure if it is freely available or not. As I remember it, it seemed quite detailed. I know donations by state were shown, I don't remember much more than that.

It’s published every year. See the 2018 report here starting on page 40. I didn’t see a state-by-state breakdown, but I only skimmed the parts further up.

[RZehr]

I've seen an independently audited annual financial report they put out. This was 10+ years ago, not sure what the availability of it is. Not sure if it is freely available or not. As I remember it, it seemed quite detailed. I know donations by state were shown, I don't remember much more than that.

It’s published every year. See the 2018 report here starting on page 40. I didn’t see a state-by-state breakdown, but I only skimmed the parts further up.

Thanks. I think I was combining two things together. I remember this report, and the state by state breakdown was another document. Not sure what it was, but I know it was from CAM.

[temporal1]

I’m noticing some folks here think the solution is for CAM to have less plain Anabaptist values. For example, Sienna and Ken both have put forward the solution is to act and think more like typical Americans evangelicals.

I would ask why not just go and promote MCC or any of the myriads of other nonprofits then.

see, this is a direct consequence of not adequately responding to sin WITHIN the church.
eventually, gov will become involved, choices removed. those coming in, whether from gov or other church, will bring their own understanding, probably will not respect yours.

i appreciate most of what Ken offers, except he does not note that sin+crimes also happen in his favored settings. no group or gov is getting this 100%.

these sins+crimes have been happening in very similar ways for hundreds of years, maybe longer.
they have been under new scrutiny (via internet) for at least 30 years.

it’s awful it is taking so long, but, as rp uses cancer as an example, “the body” of mankind is wholly infected, fixing will require sustained intentional effort. Christians “should be” best prepared to address it! But, government will be part of that, if only as a consequence dire-enough to motivate avoidance.

so, when top leaders (popes or pastors) are faced with these awful decisions, they would be well-advised they have 2 choices: 1. take care of the problems in the church, fixing, not enabling;
or, 2. deal with government interference.
#2 “should be” sufficient motivation to make those unwanted, tough decisions.

[KirkDaniel]

so, when top leaders (popes or pastors) are faced with these awful decisions, they would be well-advised they have 2 choices: 1. take care of the problems in the church, fixing, not enabling;
or, 2. deal with government interference.
#2 “should be” sufficient motivation to make those unwanted, tough decisions.

Can you clarify this? For you mean number 1 in the proactive sense? Preventing things like this, or creating an environment to prevent them?

That is well and good. But when things DO happen (even after all the prevention), you are back to 2.

The law exists to protect children.

[Sienna]

I’m noticing some folks here think the solution is for CAM to have less plain Anabaptist values. For example, Sienna and Ken both have put forward the solution is to act and think more like typical Americans evangelicals.

I would ask why not just go and promote MCC or any of the myriads of other nonprofits then.

Wait, I'm confused. How am I promoting a solution for less plain Anabaptist values? Unless we have a different view of what those are?

[temporal1]

so, when top leaders (popes or pastors) are faced with these awful decisions, they would be well-advised they have 2 choices: 1. take care of the problems in the church, fixing, not enabling;
or, 2. deal with government interference.
#2 “should be” sufficient motivation to make those unwanted, tough decisions.

Can you clarify this? For you mean number 1 in the proactive sense? Preventing things like this, or creating an environment to prevent them?

That is well and good. But when things DO happen (even after all the prevention), you are back to 2.

The law exists to protect children.

i think you understand.
what i’m trying to say is, the idea of resorting to imperfect secular gov “should be” so revolting that the difficulties involved, painful as they are, in preventing and responding to sins+crimes IN Christian settings should be the hard, preferred choice.

“When the “State” ..
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... =ragpicker

appleman and other CMs have been in action on this since before the JMast case was made public.
(i would suggest) reading everything appleman has posted on this topic. (on his profile page, search posts.) Examples:

http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... 428#p57428

Page 7: This thread. From January 2018

From what I know of Steve he would be perfectly fine with you questioning the exact number he quoted. I personally hope that number is too high but as someone said way back, if it is half that high it is way too high.

Rather than fight over the exact number which I would question that anyone actually knows,
can we at least identify with his heart cry and his trying to look for answers.

I know for a fact that Steve cares so much about this issue that he is willing to step to the side and let others more centered in the community actually take the lead as long as things get done. And I believe positive steps are in place to do some positive things and give leaders the tools they need to bring healing and help to the people they serve.

I personally feel way out of my league on this topic but one thing I can do is pray.

I will also say that I am thankful to be part of a church group that has leadership that
5 years ago already saw the importance along with the council of the whole brotherhood and the local police department of setting up a sexual abuse policy for our group that outlines how cases would be handled as well as sets up guidelines for prevention.
This was done even though we had no known specific issues.

BTW the local police department was extremely helpful and even grateful that we came to them for advice before there was an issue.

Page 6: August 2018
“Sexual abuse in Churches”
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... l&start=50

I'd like to see what policy Eastern wrote. If anyone can provide me with one, I thank you.
I like the thought of a policy for the church. It wouldn't have to be super defined, but I like that idea.
We have our own schools. I think there should be teaching that a student can feel safe confiding in the teachers.
Not all families practice the same level of modesty in the home. Whatever level we have, we should take the time to teach our children that this here is okay, and this is not. Teach them about grooming, and that certain things are not okay regardless who it is. Even if it is one of their parents or grandparents, sibling, anyone!
Tell them exactly what to do if certain things happen, and exactly what to do in certain scenarios. Remind them. Don't teach the older ones and then forget about the younger ones.

Appleman's church has a "policy" posted in the restroom.
Pretty sure I took one of the little guys out during a service just so I could read and photograph it!
I don't have a copy of it, but wish he would post it here, sometime.

I think it may be valuable to have something similar for our schools, but haven't raised the idea at a school meeting yet.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. I know it annoys some folks.
I think this thread is important, and only stumbled upon it now.

i like referencing former threads.

Page 25: http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... 385#p58385

A secondary issue that I hope such a third party investigation would deal with is the overall expertise and setup of the board and organisation itself.
It has been a concern of mine for sometime that many of our organisations are lead by well meaning and even very dedicated people but that they are often in way over their heads. Especially as it relates to procedural issues. This is not a dig at CAM and it's board in particular but at us as a group as a whole.
Finding men and women who are truly qualified to lead out in these organisations can be a very tough job and often those that might be qualified are already so busy it is hard for them to do a good job.
I know this from my own experience.
As is apparent from this case, while learning from experience on the job, so to speak, can often be good it can also be very expensive and costly when we have to learn from our mistakes.

I really wonder if it is not time for Faith Builders to offer a one two or even 5 week course on board organisation and operation in it's winter term and if a bunch of our para church organisations should not make such a course mandatory for at least some of it's board members.
I know such a course would interest me.

Bears repeating. The idea of enlisting FAITH BUILDERS is a good one.

[Sienna]

I’m noticing some folks here think the solution is for CAM to have less plain Anabaptist values. For example, Sienna and Ken both have put forward the solution is to act and think more like typical Americans evangelicals.

I would ask why not just go and promote MCC or any of the myriads of other nonprofits then.

I've promoted 1). accountability, and integrity at the highest administrative levels of organizations 2). Solid procedures and policies 3). Not sending pedophiles on to the mission field 4). Approaching wages in a manner consistent with "plain" clothing and lifestyle 5). Education for the purpose of doing Kingdom work better.

Exactly which of these goes against your "plain" values?

[Hats Off]

The Media Ignored Jeff Epstein Until They Couldn't
By Jason Rhode | July 9, 2019
But as far as politics goes, Epstein is a story about how our system protects powerful and wealthy people. This protection is not a bug in the system. It is a feature.
The story of Jeffrey Epstein is the best argument for why you have to have a systematic theory of politics. There have been alleged monsters like Epstein since the dawn of time. The question is not “Why do Epsteins exist?” The question is “Why are Epsteins protected?”

We are not alone - in fact it appears we are in "good??" company. It is an ongoing problem wherever there are men and power.

[Ernie]

I am curious, what would it take to make you consider dropping your support?

If there are no new policies, no new accountability procedures, no new layers of review, and no help for the victims. (as a result of this ordeal)

Light drives out darkness. I have very little confidence that absent public exposure, any substantial shifts would be forthcoming.

That is where we differ. I've seen substantial shifts happen in the past whenever there was negligence or naivete.

Fair enough. I think my doubt is driven by the public statement that was released. And I've already pointed out the serious issues I have with that document. As I've noted I've had a deep respect for CAM for a long time...which makes the responses up to this point so disappointing.

I am good with your list regarding what needs to happen to maintain support of CAM...with a few notes. There needs to be resignations from those who knew. And there really should be an outside investigation. And a public apology to the victims and constituents. As I've mentioned I've called for these directly from CAM through the avenues available to me. And I am advocating for others, especially those with influence, whose opinions CAM would take seriously, to do the same. With the end result, hopefully being complete restoration for CAM.

I thought I would update you on this...

The men at CAM who are handling this situation are indeed the men I thought they were.
The men who were put on administrative leave have written their apology, and have taken full responsibility. In this, they made themselves look worse than they would have needed to (based on how little information they knew about the offender.)
Steps are being taken to apologize to and help the victims.
CAM did/does have a whistle blower policy and there are ways for people to bring information to the CAM board without being censured for it.
Policies are being reviewed and updated based on what is being learned in this case.
Those managing the crisis wish that CAM could have responded publicly sooner for the benefit of supporters who interact on social media and expect things to happen quickly. They have made themselves very available to talk on the phone or in person with employees and supporters if anyone has questions. They have gotten little else done since they were given the assignment of dealing with this crisis.

I'm satisfied with what is happening. I personally think these things would have happened even if there had not been an internet sensation. But again I say that because I know these people personally and have heard their hearts now for about 10 years. I can understand those of you who don't know these men personally.

One man in the crisis management team wishes that people would give CAM six months or a year before judging them, in light of the huge list of matters that need attended to regarding this case.

In fact this is what the majority of CAM's supporters are doing.
As I said before, the Old Orders and more conservative wing of the plain people didn't embrace CAM quickly, and neither will they leave quickly. A few of these wrote to CAM with some straightforward advice, but the majority have expressed their care and prayer for the CAM staff as they work through this.
It is appearing like it is those with the least commitment to CAM who are among the first to drop their support.

[Hats Off]

Thanks, Ernie. I suppose it has been good for the men managing the crisis that some of us have been on this forum. At least while we were arguing/discussing among ourselves, we didn't all bother them as well.