Gender confusion

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
temporal1

Re: Gender confusion

Post by temporal1 »

Page 54: ELECTIVE SURGERIES / CHILD MUTILATIONS - - at public expense
Josh wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:17 am
temporal1 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:19 am De-transitioned teen sues Kaiser Permanente for performing double mastectomy on her at 13: 'Intentional fraud'
Layla Jane alleges hospital pushed surgery as 'the only way forward'

https://www.foxnews.com/media/de-transi ... onal-fraud

Relying on lawsuits to determine life on earth is not The Way.
In deep spiritual poverty, that’s where western culture is. Top-down. Literally, the U.S. White House leading.
A double mastectomy on a 13 year old who doesn’t have cancer is utterly disgusting.
Even in a serious cancer case, it is an involved surgery - lots of complications and things can go wrong. A good cancer team will try to avoid one if at all possible.

It is unbelievable we live in a world where people would do this to children,
and what is even more disturbing is that the liberals right here on MennoNet defend this.
No words strong enough to describe the evil involved.
The fact that the public treasury is central is actually key potential power to taxpayers and voters: SAY NO. VOTE NO.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Gender confusion

Post by Ken »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:06 am Page 54: ELECTIVE SURGERIES / CHILD MUTILATIONS - - at public expense
Josh wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:17 am
temporal1 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:19 am De-transitioned teen sues Kaiser Permanente for performing double mastectomy on her at 13: 'Intentional fraud'
Layla Jane alleges hospital pushed surgery as 'the only way forward'

https://www.foxnews.com/media/de-transi ... onal-fraud

Relying on lawsuits to determine life on earth is not The Way.
In deep spiritual poverty, that’s where western culture is. Top-down. Literally, the U.S. White House leading.
A double mastectomy on a 13 year old who doesn’t have cancer is utterly disgusting.
Even in a serious cancer case, it is an involved surgery - lots of complications and things can go wrong. A good cancer team will try to avoid one if at all possible.

It is unbelievable we live in a world where people would do this to children,
and what is even more disturbing is that the liberals right here on MennoNet defend this.
No words strong enough to describe the evil involved.
The fact that the public treasury is central is actually key potential power to taxpayers and voters: SAY NO. VOTE NO.
Kaiser Permanente is a private hospital and private HMO insurance system. What taxpayer dollars were involved?

Nothing in this article suggests there were any taxpayer dollars involved. But even if there were, is that your threshold for government intervention? That the government is entitled to regulate institutions or private individuals if they accept taxpayer dollars?
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Gender confusion

Post by Ken »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:17 amI am not forbidding this in the slightest. What you seem insistent on refusing to admit is that the studies (to carry the vaccine analogy) are removing any negative outcomes that make these people advocate against the vaccine.
You want people to be ignorant of consequences? Or would you rather they actually know real data that doesn’t hide the truth before they choose.
This is about hiding painful facts from vulnerable people.
You claim that painful facts are being hid from vulnerable people. I see zero evidence that this is happening. There are really four separate issues at play when we are talking about success or failure, or "the facts". Any one of which can affect the success or failure of these procedures.

1. Are these procedures medically safe. What are the possible side effects and medical complications? I've heard things like bone density. But generally people don't die from that. Long-term use of retinoids for acne treatment can also affect bone density. And for any surgery there are risks of infections and complications. Are transgender patients (and their parents if they are minors) being fully informed of the medical risks? I see no evidence that they are not. If you have evidence that the medical risks are being hidden that would be malpractice for any type of medical care, not just transgender care.

2. Are these medical procedures effective at achieving the desired physical results? Do patents have an informed and realistic sense of what the end result is going to be? How they will look and feel when it is complete? The medical science isn't magic. You aren't going to turn 6'4" 250 lb. linebackers into 5'2" 95 lb cheerleaders or vice versa. So do patients have a realistic and informed idea of where they are going and what the end result is going to be? That is the job of medical professionals to inform them in as much detail as possible so they can make an informed decision. Do you have evidence that this isn't happening?

3. Are these medical procedures going to address the psychological issues of gender dysphoria for patients? In other words, are they going to be happier or more at ease with their lives with medical intervention? Looks are not everything. They are, in fact, superficial. Pretty people can be just as unhappy as ugly people. And the vast majority of people don't look like Barbies and Kens. So are patients properly informed of this reality? That even with physical changes there is not magic bullet for happiness? That is an issue more for their therapists. Do you have evidence that this is not happening? And that patents are being given an unrealistic idea that medical interventions are going to magically make them happier or solve their problems?

4. And finally there is the issue of people who were not actually trans but for whatever psychological reason slipped through the cracks and went down this road. Or who ended up changing their minds. This is not at all a question of the success or failure of transgender medical treatment. It is a question about the success or failure of screening to make sure the patients are truly transgender and not suffering from some other psychological issue. Is this happening? Is the medical profession taking all steps to make sure they aren't treating the wrong people? From what I have read it seems that the answer is largely yes. The profession is going to a great deal of effort here. And the studies we have been talking about suggest that proper screening brings the numbers down. But there is also a weakest link element here. The story upstream about the 13 year old girl who is suing Kaiser Permanente? Apparently her mother engaged in "doctor shopping" and they bounced around until finally finding a doctor or therapist who would sign off. Is that a problem? Are there 10% or 5% or 1% of doctors and therapists out there who do not do enough diligent screening in these cases? Possibly. Maybe even likely. That is likely the case in every single area of medicine. If this pandemic has taught us anything it is that there are a LOT of quacks out there pushing unsound medicine. In my mind this is something medical boards and the profession needs to address. And also the legal system. If large numbers of teens are being inappropriately transitioned then we will likely see a tidal wave of malpractice lawsuits and there will be a LOT of very wealthy teens and their families out there getting big settlements. And the profession will quickly adjust course like it does in response to any other malpractice risk. In fact, the FOX news article cited upstream says that 85-90% of transgender teens are actually dissuaded from medical interventions. So it sounds like a lot of screening is actually happening.

All of your comments are focused entirely on #4. Which frankly has nothing to do with the success or failure of transgender medicine. It has to do with the success or failure of screening. If this problem is of the scale that you and other anti-trans activists claim then I suspect we will soon have prima facie evidence of this when hundreds or thousands of malpractice lawsuits start cropping up around the country. And if that doesn't happen. If it is just the rare case here and there that we can count on one or two hands then it sounds like more a case of a few bad apples within the medical system rather than any systematic problem.

Either way, let's not insult everyone's intelligence by pretending that this current national obsession with transgender medicine is actually about protecting kids. We let thousands of kids die horrible deaths all across the country every year. And tens of thousands more suffer from all kinds preventable diseases, disfiguring accidents, physical and psychological abuse, hunger and neglect, and so forth and no one blinks and eye or lifts a finger. In fact we as a society are deliberately and intentionally callus, Or we brush it off as questions of freedom, parental rights, medical autonomy and so forth.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Soloist

Re: Gender confusion

Post by Soloist »

When you are ready to discuss the data let me know.
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temporal1

Re: Gender confusion

Post by temporal1 »

GROSS NEGLIGENCE OF REALITY:
.. What taxpayer dollars were involved? ..
Nothing in this article suggests there were any taxpayer dollars involved. ..
quick search: “does government pay for transgender surgery?”
https://www.google.com/search?q=does+go ... UTF-8#ip=1

(This search is not specific to minors.) DIY

Please do not mistake this post as an attempt to communicate. It’s not.

It’s just a suggestion about opening eyes to current basic lib politics, and how everything addressed has 2 key underlying motivations: 1) hijacking law to gain legal power, protections, promotion; 2) access to the public treasury.

IT’S ABOUT THE [GOVERNMENT] MONEY. $$$$ and power. loads of power. off-the-charts influence. top-down.

Remove the golden ring, the circus would stop.

As has been well covered earlier in this topic, child mutilation, alone, is expected to parlay into BILLIONS, it creates life-long medical dependency out of tender little bodies, minds, souls, in the most gruesome ways.

Millstones. “Word” has it, God will not be forgiving. :-|

Thankfully, many are saying NO, and voting NO. Better late than never.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Gender confusion

Post by Ken »

This particular surgery that you are citing was performed in a private hospital with private insurance.

If you want to argue that the government is entitled to extend its regulatory arm to every organization and person who benefits from public tax dollars then there are going to be a whole lot religious schools, religious charities, and churches who will find themselves coming under government regulation.

For example, Catholic dioceses and Catholic-run organizations pocketed over $3 BILLION in pandemic relief funds in 2020, virtually none of which was ever repaid. Does that entitle the Federal government to regulate say the hiring practices of the Catholic church?

Again, this issue comes down to principles. If there is a consistent principled argument to be made for regulating or outlawing transgender care in this country based on standards and principles that are applied equally in other situations then fine. It is a principled argument. If not then one can easily argue that it is nothing more than hypocrisy driven by bigotry.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Gender confusion

Post by Ken »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:13 pm When you are ready to discuss the data let me know.
Fine. Let's discuss. What does your data suggest is the correct percentage of transgender patients who regret their decision and de-transition? I believe you claimed somewhere upstream that it was a majority. Where is the data to support that? It should be a knowable number. And there seems to be a lot of people who claim it is high. So there must be some numbers to support that assertion that were legitimately collected and go beyond the merely anecdotal.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Soloist

Re: Gender confusion

Post by Soloist »

Ken wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:05 pm
Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:13 pm When you are ready to discuss the data let me know.
Fine. Let's discuss. What does your data suggest is the correct percentage of transgender patients who regret their decision and de-transition? I believe you claimed somewhere upstream that it was a majority. Where is the data to support that? It should be a knowable number. And there seems to be a lot of people who claim it is high. So there must be some numbers to support that assertion that were legitimately collected and go beyond the merely anecdotal.
Reread my posts.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Gender confusion

Post by Ken »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:21 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:05 pm
Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:13 pm When you are ready to discuss the data let me know.
Fine. Let's discuss. What does your data suggest is the correct percentage of transgender patients who regret their decision and de-transition? I believe you claimed somewhere upstream that it was a majority. Where is the data to support that? It should be a knowable number. And there seems to be a lot of people who claim it is high. So there must be some numbers to support that assertion that were legitimately collected and go beyond the merely anecdotal.
Reread my posts.
The only thing I saw in your posts were references to anonymous reddit postings claiming that people who de-transitioned are being left out of certain surveys. I haven't seen you present any evidence at all to what you think the correct number is. And the context or methodology in which it was generated.

So here is your chance. Show is the correct numbers and the methodology in which they were generated. This is YOUR argument not mine. My argument doesn't actually depend on knowing what the number is. I am arguing that people should be left alone to make their own choices without heavy-handed government intervention. Even if those choices turn out to be mistakes. That is what it means to live in a free society.
Last edited by Ken on Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
temporal1

Re: Gender confusion

Post by temporal1 »

.. this issue comes down to principles. ..
100% reject.
principles+morality are what godless self-serving PROFITEERS hide behind. it’s extremely effective at “divide+conquer.”

i understand how this realization could be so unnerving, denial is preferred. nobody wants to be made a fool, esp in public.

acid test:
when abortions and surgeries are paid out-of-pocket by promoters, this would indicate principles+morality matter.
gov funded FOR PROFIT death and mutilation of innocents rings specially filthy.
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