What makes you such an expert on the motivations of all the experts out there? What makes you so certain that the highly politicized narratives you promote don't reflect agendas we should be uncomfortable with? If I claimed to be an expert on your motives or the motives and agendas of others here, would you accept that? I sure wouldn't. I would hope people would pile on to say that's just not OK.
I am very reluctant to say that I fully understand anyone else's motives, especially people I do not know well, but I think it is possible to understand data and research designs. To me, it feels like there is a group that approaches this from the opposite perspective. They are quite confident they know the agendas and evil motives of anyone who disagrees with them, but data and research design and all that stuff scientists deal with is beyond them. At my age, I have been surprised by a good handful of people who seemed to have good motives but turned out to be abusing children or committing financial fraud. I have also been surprised by the integrity and intelligence of people I had misjudged. I suspect other people just might be equally fallible when they judge the motives of others, and I suspect we may all be just a little blind about who is trying to manipulate us and how.
I understand where you're coming from, just not in agreement- you're also assuming evil about an awful lot of Christians, ascribing a lack of sacrifice & compassion from a great many Anabaptists. I think the way they discerned who & what to trust actually turned out well
the word "science" comes from the Latin word "scientia" which simply means "knowledge"
For those who reject science (and I'm not saying that you are), what exactly are they rejecting?
I don't personally know anyone that objects and or rejects science altogether. If the simplified meaning of it is knowledge, I think that people instead of embracing all science or knowledge as truth is dangerous. And there are scientists with opposing views meaning one scientist knowledge and another scientist knowledge opposed one another. In that case we need to determine and discern those that we trust in conveying the truth.
Throughout this thread I really don't see that anyone was able to answer Wayne's question regarding and a Baptist. But in my experience with Anabaptist people, it seems to me what they accept as science / knowledge is not automatically embraced just because of somebody's credentials.
Wayne in Maine wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 7:56 am
I suspect that 99.99% of the time people, including groups of people, claiming to be directed by the Holy Spirit are in fact being guided by their own personal inclinations and biases.
I don't know if this is true or not, but it's a disturbing idea.
Is the Holy Spirit still active today? Does not he give direction? Then how can so many sincere Christians be so wrong?
Yet when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. -- John 16.13 ISV
JimFoxvog wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:10 am
Is the Holy Spirit still active today? Does not he give direction? Then how can so many sincere Christians be so wrong?
Yet when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. -- John 16.13 ISV
I expect the biggest reason is ignorance of God's Word, which is how the Holy Spirit generally guides.
I understand where you're coming from, just not in agreement- you're also assuming evil about an awful lot of Christians, ascribing a lack of sacrifice & compassion from a great many Anabaptists. I think the way they discerned who & what to trust actually turned out well
the word "science" comes from the Latin word "scientia" which simply means "knowledge"
For those who reject science (and I'm not saying that you are), what exactly are they rejecting?
I don't personally know anyone that objects and or rejects science altogether. If the simplified meaning of it is knowledge, I think that people instead of embracing all science or knowledge as truth is dangerous. And there are scientists with opposing views meaning one scientist knowledge and another scientist knowledge opposed one another. In that case we need to determine and discern those that we trust in conveying the truth.
Throughout this thread I really don't see that anyone was able to answer Wayne's question regarding and a Baptist. But in my experience with Anabaptist people, it seems to me what they accept as science / knowledge is not automatically embraced just because of somebody's credentials.
Perhaps some of the distrust of science can be traced to the KJV rendering of 1 Timothy 6:20 where "gnosis reads "science" instead of "knowledge".
0 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
KJV
Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding irreverent and empty speech and contradictions from what is falsely called knowledge.
CSB
There is actually quite a bit in 1 Timothy 6 that we would do well to compare with our own attitudes and actions, it seems.
Wayne in Maine wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 7:56 am
I suspect that 99.99% of the time people, including groups of people, claiming to be directed by the Holy Spirit are in fact being guided by their own personal inclinations and biases.
I don't know if this is true or not, but it's a disturbing idea.
Is the Holy Spirit still active today? Does not he give direction? Then how can so many sincere Christians be so wrong?
Yet when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. -- John 16.13 ISV
That is a good question, Jim. If 99.99% of those claiming to be directed by the Holy Spirit are not, then according to Romans 8:14 they are not 'sons of God'. The Holy Spirit does speak to us through the Bible but for most of the past 2,000 years believers had no Bible and furthermore those scholars throughout the NT era who have studied the Bible have some quite varied interpretations of it resulting in many divisions in The Church.
I think the scripture regarding us now 'seeing through a glass darkly' and now only 'knowing in part' might explain some of this. None of us has all the truth about God nailed down.
However, to your questions regarding the Spirit's guidance today could it be that we have grieved and perhaps quenched the Spirit's revelation of truth because we insist on figuring spiritual truths out by our human reasoning and don't really have ears to hear what the Spirit wants us to know and do ? Is it the Spirit at work when a Calvinist and Armenian have opposing views on how God operates or the different understandings and practises amongst Anabaptists ?
Would love to hear how others here explain why we have so many varied understandings of NT Christianity when we all think we are Spirit lead ? Could make as another thread if this doesn't fit here.
Wayne in Maine wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 7:56 am
I suspect that 99.99% of the time people, including groups of people, claiming to be directed by the Holy Spirit are in fact being guided by their own personal inclinations and biases.
I don't know if this is true or not, but it's a disturbing idea.
Is the Holy Spirit still active today? Does not he give direction? Then how can so many sincere Christians be so wrong?
Yet when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. -- John 16.13 ISV
That is a good question, Jim. If 99.99% of those claiming to be directed by the Holy Spirit are not, then according to Romans 8:14 they are not 'sons of God'. The Holy Spirit does speak to us through the Bible but for most of the past 2,000 years believers had no Bible and furthermore those scholars throughout the NT era who have studied the Bible have some quite varied interpretations of it resulting in many divisions in The Church.
I think the scripture regarding us now 'seeing through a glass darkly' and now only 'knowing in part' might explain some of this. None of us has all the truth about God nailed down.
However, to your questions regarding the Spirit's guidance today could it be that we have grieved and perhaps quenched the Spirit's revelation of truth because we insist on figuring spiritual truths out by our human reasoning and don't really have ears to hear what the Spirit wants us to know and do ? Is it the Spirit at work when a Calvinist and Armenian have opposing views on how God operates or the different understandings and practises amongst Anabaptists ?
Would love to hear how others here explain why we have so many varied understandings of NT Christianity when we all think we are Spirit lead ? Could make as another thread if this doesn't fit here.
If I remember correctly, Leonard Ravenhill once said he believes that only about 5% of professing Christians are actually born again. That would mean that 95% of Christians are not guided by the Holy Spirit.
silentreader wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:20 amIf I remember correctly, Leonard Ravenhill once said he believes that only about 5% of professing Christians are actually born again. That would mean that 95% of Christians are not guided by the Holy Spirit.
And how would he have known? Because they "didn't do it right" according to his strict standards?
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
silentreader wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:20 amIf I remember correctly, Leonard Ravenhill once said he believes that only about 5% of professing Christians are actually born again. That would mean that 95% of Christians are not guided by the Holy Spirit.
And how would he have known? Because they "didn't do it right" according to his strict standards?
Jesus set the bar pretty high. He refers to his followers as a little flock.
silentreader wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:20 amIf I remember correctly, Leonard Ravenhill once said he believes that only about 5% of professing Christians are actually born again. That would mean that 95% of Christians are not guided by the Holy Spirit.
And how would he have known? Because they "didn't do it right" according to his strict standards?
Jesus set the bar pretty high. He refers to his followers as a little flock.
Just saying. Leonard Ravenhill was famously doctrinaire and during his revival tours he taught that most evangelical churches were "doing it wrong" I'm just wondering by what standard he thought his own clan were doing Christianity correctly and everyone else was doing it wrong.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
silentreader wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:20 amIf I remember correctly, Leonard Ravenhill once said he believes that only about 5% of professing Christians are actually born again. That would mean that 95% of Christians are not guided by the Holy Spirit.
And how would he have known? Because they "didn't do it right" according to his strict standards?
Probably the same way that WiM suspects that 99.9% of "Christian" decisions are not made through Holy Spirit direction, don't you think?