Standards vs Reality

[appleman2006]

May I suggest that using the terms "up" and "down" in this situation regardless of which way a person may think up and down is might be at least part of the reason why there seems to be so much problem in this area.
And just for the record I am quite all right and even somewhat relieved with not being considered a "blue blood" for the sake of this conversation.

[temporal1]

.. The most common shift I see is someone's group essentially changes ..

this might be the most-distinguishing phenomena in Christian churches in recent years,
maybe beginning in the 80-90's? resulting in lots of empty pews as church-goers feel alienated (from within.) these folks might be the ones most interested in "swimming upstream" to find the lost path.

"swimming upstream," to me, means forsaking the world to follow Jesus.

in ways, this is an interesting time for Christians, for faith and churches.
for a long while, there was so much ambivalence in churches (many knew it, both leadership and laity.)

it's not a comfortable period, but, Christians aren't supposed to be comfortable.

Jesus wasn't comfortable, and neither were His Apostles.
they did a lot of traveling, never settling into any one group (i believe that's correct?) .. Paul and Barnabas were close friends, then they parted ways. there are a lot of parallels in those early days with our contemporary times. i'm thinking of all the human law and sin, and about how Paul was a "city-guy," certainly not born a believer, but then grew into a principle follower of "the way." 2000+years later, what has changed?

[Neto]

I know two brothers here in Holmes County who grew up Beachy AM, and joined the Old Order Amish.

I hope I do not sound exceedingly cynical, but did they marry into the church?

One of them married one of my wife's relatives, & I don't know his story. The other one I worked with for about 3 years, and also closely with his wife's brother in law, and knew his daughter as well. He grew up in one of the more conservative Beachy AM congregations in this area, and grew up running with Amish kids. So in a way, other than getting rid of the Dodge Charger he drove at the time, it was not a big jump. But even that is not an unusual thing for Amish guys of that time. Various Amish men have told me about the hot rod cars they had before they joined the church.

[MaxPC]

I do too. Appleman's entire post reflects my own thinking about my church as well, especially this part:

The idea that I can only worship or get along with those that think and do exactly what I do is the height of spiritual pride and arrogance and has nothing to do with unity. Unity as I see it is learning to love and appreciate those that are different from you. I do appreciate my heritage. It has helped me in many ways. But I am not adverse to talking about where we are less than perfect which we are in many areas.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I know two brothers here in Holmes County who grew up Beachy AM, and joined the Old Order Amish.

I hope I do not sound exceedingly cynical, but did they marry into the church?

One of them married one of my wife's relatives, & I don't know his story. The other one I worked with for about 3 years, and also closely with his wife's brother in law, and knew his daughter as well. He grew up in one of the more conservative Beachy AM congregations in this area, and grew up running with Amish kids. So in a way, other than getting rid of the Dodge Charger he drove at the time, it was not a big jump. But even that is not an unusual thing for Amish guys of that time. Various Amish men have told me about the hot rod cars they had before they joined the church.

Could he be the guy that passed my car with a harness racing sulky at speeds approaching automotive traffic? I never expected to see THAT in Holmes county.

J.M.

[Neto]

I hope I do not sound exceedingly cynical, but did they marry into the church?

One of them married one of my wife's relatives, & I don't know his story. The other one I worked with for about 3 years, and also closely with his wife's brother in law, and knew his daughter as well. He grew up in one of the more conservative Beachy AM congregations in this area, and grew up running with Amish kids. So in a way, other than getting rid of the Dodge Charger he drove at the time, it was not a big jump. But even that is not an unusual thing for Amish guys of that time. Various Amish men have told me about the hot rod cars they had before they joined the church.

Could he be the guy that passed my car with a harness racing sulky at speeds approaching automotive traffic? I never expected to see THAT in Holmes county.

J.M.

He is sort of a "Amish cowboy", but I don't think he's into that. (Shovel races at Charm days, yes.)

[Josh]

A few of my coworkers live in a heavy plain area, and sometimes I wish plain folks could understand how horrendous our witness becomes when we embrace some redneck, macho, cowboy culture.

[Hats Off]

May I suggest that using the terms "up" and "down" in this situation regardless of which way a person may think up and down is might be at least part of the reason why there seems to be so much problem in this area.
And just for the record I am quite all right and even somewhat relieved with not being considered a "blue blood" for the sake of this conversation.

Oh, but i think you really are! I am not even sure what I meant by the term. And yes, I have often struggled with up and down or higher and lower. The only way to determine would be to create a list of good things, a list of bad things with points then rating each group by the total number of points. Of course I would have to rate both your group and our group and you would need to do the same. Then we would discuss our ratings and arrive at a conclusion (if we didn't arrive at blows first.) if we were rating on a liberal/conservative scale, we would first have to arrive at a standard definition for each term. Can you imagine an argument or discussion on black versus white, or what is one solid subdued colour?

[lesterb]

May I suggest that using the terms "up" and "down" in this situation regardless of which way a person may think up and down is might be at least part of the reason why there seems to be so much problem in this area.
And just for the record I am quite all right and even somewhat relieved with not being considered a "blue blood" for the sake of this conversation.

Oh, but i think you really are! I am not even sure what I meant by the term. And yes, I have often struggled with up and down or higher and lower. The only way to determine would be to create a list of good things, a list of bad things with points then rating each group by the total number of points. Of course I would have to rate both your group and our group and you would need to do the same. Then we would discuss our ratings and arrive at a conclusion (if we didn't arrive at blows first.) if we were rating on a liberal/conservative scale, we would first have to arrive at a standard definition for each term. Can you imagine an argument or discussion on black versus white, or what is one solid subdued colour?

I think that in the areas we have lived in for the past almost 17 years, it is pretty well a consensus that white is a more subdued and conservative color than black. I know that would shock some of the "plain" people in the east, but black is one of the more outstanding colors for a vehicle.

[cmbl]

I think that "up" and "down" are just being used to indicate more conservative/less conservative. More conservative does not necessarily mean more spiritual. Neither does less conservative necessarily mean more spiritual (despite what people who are getting "liberated" would have us believe). But if there is any value to Anabaptist conservatism, and I think there is, then the trend of people moving from more to less conservative settings is troubling. As is the trend of written standards not being followed by a congregation, but expected of potential new members.