Gender confusion

[Bootstrap]

Once again, a "fact" that you just invented out of thin air. Do you not yet understand that it destroys your credibility to just make up your own facts out of thin air?

Can you actually show any proof that he is wrong?

Can we ask for proof in both directions? What evidence is there that this claim is right or wrong?

[Soloist]

Once again, a "fact" that you just invented out of thin air. Do you not yet understand that it destroys your credibility to just make up your own facts out of thin air?

Can you actually show any proof that he is wrong?

Can we ask for proof in both directions? What evidence is there that this claim is right or wrong?

I can’t look up it on my phone but if you have time there are several therapists talking about this problem and trying to address it. Also detrans reddit talks about this with trying to find therapists. I haven’t seen a list of states banning it or a list of states allowing it. I do know that when conversion therapy was banned, many state therapists were pressured to affirm and by policy some states dictated affirmative support.

Nothing wrong asking for proof in either direction but he (ken) stated that Josh made it up. He could have asked for proof but instead he bashed it as “fake news”

[Ken]

Can you actually show any proof that he is wrong?

Can we ask for proof in both directions? What evidence is there that this claim is right or wrong?

Can I show proof? Sure I can. Here is the entire revised code of Washington: https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/ It is even searchable for your convenience.

Nowhere in there is a law that states it is "illegal to give any counseling to an LGBT-questioning person other than strongly affirming transition or adopting a homosexual identity"

Look as hard as you want. You will find no such law. If I am wrong, I'm sure Josh can easily show us this law that he claims exists.

[Bootstrap]

Nothing wrong asking for proof in either direction but he (ken) stated that Josh made it up. He could have asked for proof but instead he bashed it as “fake news”

I see a lot of that on many issues in most directions. I'd like to see us do better at saying, "here's a claim, what evidence is there that it is true of false"? Seems like we often go pages and pages, back and forth, batting away what the other person said, without first stopping to see if we are talking about something that is actually true.

And each side demands proof from the other side, in only one direction.

To me, that leads to a lot of useless churn and bad feelings without ever getting anywhere near to an actual fact worth discussing. It's easy to identify the factions, but hard to identify the facts.

[Soloist]

I see a lot of that on many issues in most directions. I'd like to see us do better at saying, "here's a claim, what evidence is there that it is true of false"? Seems like we often go pages and pages, back and forth, batting away what the other person said, without first stopping to see if we are talking about something that is actually true.

And each side demands proof from the other side, in only one direction.

To me, that leads to a lot of useless churn and bad feelings without ever getting anywhere near to an actual fact worth discussing. It's easy to identify the factions, but hard to identify the facts.

Well if you actually wanted some evidence, look into my suggestions and see what you find

[Soloist]

Can I show proof? Sure I can. Here is the entire revised code of Washington: https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/ It is even searchable for your convenience.

Nowhere in there is a law that states it is "illegal to give any counseling to an LGBT-questioning person other than strongly affirming transition or adopting a homosexual identity"

Have you actually looked into the conversion therapy laws? Have you read anything by therapists who care about this?

[Ken]

Can I show proof? Sure I can. Here is the entire revised code of Washington: https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/ It is even searchable for your convenience.

Nowhere in there is a law that states it is "illegal to give any counseling to an LGBT-questioning person other than strongly affirming transition or adopting a homosexual identity"

Have you actually looked into the conversion therapy laws? Have you read anything by therapists who care about this?

What does conversion therapy have to do with this? Josh made a different and far more broad sweeping claim.

[nett]

Can you actually show any proof that he is wrong?

Can we ask for proof in both directions? What evidence is there that this claim is right or wrong?

Can I show proof? Sure I can. Here is the entire revised code of Washington: https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/ It is even searchable for your convenience.

Nowhere in there is a law that states it is "illegal to give any counseling to an LGBT-questioning person other than strongly affirming transition or adopting a homosexual identity"

Look as hard as you want. You will find no such law. If I am wrong, I'm sure Josh can easily show us this law that he claims exists.

My wife is in psychiatric care. When she worked at a university, she would absolutely have been disciplined, and the university would have pursued revoking having her license revoked if she provided anything other than affirming care. She knows this, because the sheer number of transgender students that she was treating was getting out of hand, and she felt that she could no longer provide the standard of care in good conscience. Her direct supervisor happened to be sympathetic to her, so they were able to discuss this, but it was made clear in no uncertain terms that only affirming care would be permitted, and any deviation would be very risky.

Ken, just because there aren't laws that explicitly say, "It's illegal to give non-affirming care", doesn't mean that it's absolutely an unwritten rule that everyone knows.

[Soloist]

What does conversion therapy have to do with this? Josh made a different and far more broad sweeping claim.

I can’t speak to Josh’s claim, but I do know that the conversion therapy laws have resulted in a system were it is very hard to get gender issues dealt with or the root issues without being pressured for affirmation. I know this is true but I don’t know that it’s true in every state. I have read multiple first hand experiences detailing what happens behind closed doors. I also have read how difficult it is to find therapists that do not automatically affirm. There is a list and three different organizations ran by less then 30 therapists world wide. This is outside of Christian circles.

[nett]

What does conversion therapy have to do with this? Josh made a different and far more broad sweeping claim.

I can’t speak to Josh’s claim, but I do know that the conversion therapy laws have resulted in a system were it is very hard to get gender issues dealt with or the root issues without being pressured for affirmation. I know this is true but I don’t know that it’s true in every state. I have read multiple first hand experiences detailing what happens behind closed doors. I also have read how difficult it is to find therapists that do not automatically affirm. There is a list and three different organizations ran by less then 30 therapists world wide. This is outside of Christian circles.

Standard of care makes it very risky to provide non-affirming care. As usual, there is no law about how a provider can practice, but certain practices can put you on the radar for having your license revoked. Providing non-affirming care is absolutely one of these practices,.

My wife left a very lucrative career because of this exact ethical dilemma. Ken is once again downplaying a very serious issue, and acting like it's not a problem, and anyone who talks about it is crazy.