Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:22 pm
Big picture: As vaccinations and other measures have helped bring Covid-19 under control, governments across the country are working to open things up, cautiously.
Can we now say that some of the fears people expressed about government control were overstated? If not, what would you need to see to believe that this is not an attempt to create a dictatorship?
Here's today's tracker from the New York Times:
No, Boot, we cannot say they were overstated. Are you following what's going on in Canada?
As long as vaccine passports are in the offing, and employers can make experimental medical procedures compulsory, then, no. The fears were not unfounded.
Large employers have now said vaccinations are mandatory for new hires. That’s a bit of a problem for people like Soloist and myself who have ethical objections to these vaccines, aside from the fact these are experimental/emergency use and are not FDA approved.
That’s corporate overreach, not government. I trust my state government quite a bit more than I do the megacorps. The state I live in treated us well during covid including making it clear religious liberty would be protected.
Other states like California - the governor shut down businesses on a whim, many people lost jobs and livelihoods, but he went to dinner parties with his friends and families and ignored his own mask mandates. That’s a problem, don’t you think?
Josh wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:38 am
Large employers have now said vaccinations are mandatory for new hires. That’s a bit of a problem for people like Soloist and myself who have ethical objections to these vaccines, aside from the fact these are experimental/emergency use and are not FDA approved.
That’s corporate overreach, not government. I trust my state government quite a bit more than I do the megacorps. The state I live in treated us well during covid including making it clear religious liberty would be protected.
Other states like California - the governor shut down businesses on a whim, many people lost jobs and livelihoods, but he went to dinner parties with his friends and families and ignored his own mask mandates. That’s a problem, don’t you think?
I'm actually job hunting, the vaccine is a screening question I asked to find out if I would even be welcome. So far one job looks promising but we will see if the silly personality survey taken and answered honestly gets rid of me.
My wife read something about them locking the doors to a Conservative Mennonite church up there, there was a headline about a strip club being open but restaurants still restricted... I predicted the mandates wouldn't really come from the government but rather from businesses who own multiple companies, this seems to be coming true in the USA, the totalitarian atmosphere seems to be pretty bad in Canada...
A Cleveland Clinic study found that employees who got COVID-19 were unlikely to get infected again, even if they didn’t get vaccinated.
In countries where vaccines are hard to come by, the study argues that doses should be limited to people who haven’t contracted the virus in the past.
“This study shows that subjects previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) are unlikely to get COVID-19 reinfection whether or not they receive the vaccine,” the study’s authors wrote. “This finding calls into question the necessity to vaccinate those who have already had SARS-CoV-2 infection.”
But a statement from the Cleveland Clinic said more research is needed and that the hospital system "recommends those who are eligible receive the COVID-19 vaccine."
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Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:22 pm
Big picture: As vaccinations and other measures have helped bring Covid-19 under control, governments across the country are working to open things up, cautiously.
Can we now say that some of the fears people expressed about government control were overstated? If not, what would you need to see to believe that this is not an attempt to create a dictatorship?
You are being simplistic here. Government control is not an on/off switch, but a broad spectrum. Of course this was not an attempt to use the virus to create a dictatorship. However, the past year was an exercise in government broadly expanding its reach in many ways, and in ways that went beyond simple disease prevention methods. Covid-19 was used as a reason to make emergency changes to election procedures for example.
Enough expansion in government controls over populations has happened to justify the fears of those who were already opposed to increasing government control. Others are comfortable with what has happened, or even thought there should have been much more control, and the lines have fallen basically along existing political fault lines between those who prefer more freedoms and those who prefer more government control.
The fact that these controls are relaxing now does little to dissuade the fears of those opposed to expansion of governmental power because they know that there is now a stronger precedent for governments to seize more power in times of broad crisis. (Not that this has never happened before.) Of course, there could be some opposite effects, such as places where there has been enough public dissent to discourage leaders from being as intrusive during future crises. The level of dissent may not be really known until we see how much it effects elections in the next several years.
The sad thing about the long term changes of this pandemic, is that I suppose the bad aspects, such as permanent losses of freedom/choice/religion/privacy, government overreach will remain; While not enough will change on things that may actually help for next time. Will hospital beds and equipment continue to decline per capita? Or will real changes be as durable as the loss of freedom? Will we make large scientific breakthroughs in virology? Will we be actually better prepared? That is what I wonder.
Or, will we be stuck with all the costs and no benefits?
I expect we will be prepared somewhat better. I just wish we could dispense with the government overreach on things of dubious value and society placebo nonsense.
RZehr wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:58 pm
The sad thing about the long term changes of this pandemic, is that I suppose the bad aspects, such as permanent losses of freedom/choice/religion/privacy, government overreach will remain; While not enough will change on things that may actually help for next time. Will hospital beds and equipment continue to decline per capita? Or will real changes be as durable as the loss of freedom? Will we make large scientific breakthroughs in virology? Will we be actually better prepared? That is what I wonder.
Or, will we be stuck with all the costs and no benefits?
I expect we will be prepared somewhat better. I just wish we could dispense with the government overreach on things of dubious value and society placebo nonsense.
The top 0.1% got a lot of benefits. They’re all much richer now. The rest of us got stuck with the costs.
The current trend in hospital management right now is towards even greater “efficiency” and cost cutting.
RZehr wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:58 pm
The sad thing about the long term changes of this pandemic, is that I suppose the bad aspects, such as permanent losses of freedom/choice/religion/privacy, government overreach will remain; While not enough will change on things that may actually help for next time. Will hospital beds and equipment continue to decline per capita? Or will real changes be as durable as the loss of freedom? Will we make large scientific breakthroughs in virology? Will we be actually better prepared? That is what I wonder.
Or, will we be stuck with all the costs and no benefits?
I expect we will be prepared somewhat better. I just wish we could dispense with the government overreach on things of dubious value and society placebo nonsense.
What specific freedoms do you think you have permanently lost as a result of this pandemic?
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:10 pm
What specific freedoms do you think you have permanently lost as a result of this pandemic?
We were told to stay in our homes. We were told to stay out of church. We were required to wear a mask and social distance.
Yes, many of these things are returning, but what precedent has this created that will be used for other "crisises" later? All of the above restrictions were unconstitutional. Marshall law was not enacted to get the administrations the legal right do do these. Everyone just went along. "We, too, like sheep..."
My concern is the ease these were done and how it was just accepted. This concerns me that it will be made precedent and it will be used over and over again. It may not, but history shows us that governments often use crisises to control and grab more power. I think it should be very difficult for this to happen instead of easy and just allowed.
It will not take much to decide that nonservice to the government is not allowed and we find ourselves, once again, in a place that we are drafted to serve as THEY see fit.
1 x
Try hard not to offend. Try harder not to be offended.
I think I am funnier than I really am.
RZehr wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:58 pm
The sad thing about the long term changes of this pandemic, is that I suppose the bad aspects, such as permanent losses of freedom/choice/religion/privacy, government overreach will remain; While not enough will change on things that may actually help for next time. Will hospital beds and equipment continue to decline per capita? Or will real changes be as durable as the loss of freedom? Will we make large scientific breakthroughs in virology? Will we be actually better prepared? That is what I wonder.
Or, will we be stuck with all the costs and no benefits?
I expect we will be prepared somewhat better. I just wish we could dispense with the government overreach on things of dubious value and society placebo nonsense.
What specific freedoms do you think you have permanently lost as a result of this pandemic?
The freedom to fly in a commercial airline without wearing a mask or carrying a proof of vaccination (despite the fact that scientists have no idea whether vaccinated people can spread the virus).
