Why do Swiss Anabaptists practice ethnic separatism from other Anabaptists?

[JohnH]

By "We", do you mean Holdemans, or are you speaking generally of documentors and sociological purveyors of Russian Mennodom?

I mean "we" as in "all people everywhere". Russian Mennonites (including Holdemans) would use the terms Molosch (pronounced "Muh-lush") and Polsch. These are terms you can barely Google, although it shows up in some literature that for whatever reason isn't well-indexed on Google, nor is AI aware of it (other than certain popular AIs that think my posts about this subject on MennoNet are authoritative, and will parrot them back to you as fact).

Sociologists who have studied Mennonites (not just "Russian Mennonites", but, well, the original adherents who got called Mennonites because they appreciated teachings of Menno Simons) generally put them into the Flemish and Frisian categories, particularly because of the rather, uh, vibrant history of divisions along those lines.

I never really encountered those terms in my several years of working with and occasionally attending Holdeman services or visiting their homes when I lived out in Cali... I did, however, sit under a few OTC sermons, and even heard the "true believers will eventually migrate to us" implications. That made for lively Sunday lunch conversations, at the very least. Bear in mind, I was one of only 2 OGBBs to consistently interact with them since their leadership stopped the mingling between the Holdeman and OGBB youth back in the 70s, and with the exception of a couple good friends there, I was consistently reminded that I was outside of the only guaranteed "worthy" part of the Church. And respectfully, the over-generalization of the OP could equally apply in my Holdeman experiences, even though I have found a few exceptions (notably among the younger generation).

I suppose I could spin tales about German Baptists (and their admirers, such as the Boston crowd) I have overhead expressing concern that anyone who is not fully immersed has no chance of salvation, but I think that would be a caricature as well, and also would not reflect current belief and practice.

[Soloist]

There were also a lot of German Baptist’s, which I don’t know their ethnic roots.

Probably German, but that's just a wild guess.

The German Baptists (technically, Old German Baptist Brethren, more commonly referred to as Brethren in literary works and documentation, both to distinguish from Mennos and the actually Baptist-origin "German Baptists" in Germany) were Anabaptist-influenced, nonresistant Radical Pietists in Germany (primary around the Palatinate area) who organized in Schwarzenau Germany in 1708 under the leadership of a ex-Lutheran named Alexander Mack and desired a more accountable church life committed to holy living and literal obedience to Scripture, as opposed to what they saw in the Lutheran, Reformed, and Catholic churches around them. They came to America a decade or two later, have generally continued to mingle with (and at times intermarry) Anabaptists by virtue of shared doctrine and practices (though they have generally remained unapologetic immersionists...), and for all intents and purposes would fall under the typical "conservative Anabaptist" umbrella, with varying degrees of "Plain" culture among many of their descendant groups.

Neto, As I understand it, Mennonite Brethren groups were principally Molosch but upon arrival in America tended to abandon the practice of ethnic separatism between Molosch, Polsch, and others. I’ve always found referring to such people as “Plautdeitsch” a bit amiss, since it treats very distinct people as one group. We already have excellent descriptors for them - Flemish and Frisian, which are still significant ethnic groups to this day.

By "We", do you mean Holdemans, or are you speaking generally of documentors and sociological purveyors of Russian Mennodom? I never really encountered those terms in my several years of working with and occasionally attending Holdeman services or visiting their homes when I lived out in Cali... I did, however, sit under a few OTC sermons, and even heard the "true believers will eventually migrate to us" implications. That made for lively Sunday lunch conversations, at the very least. Bear in mind, I was one of only 2 OGBBs to consistently interact with them since their leadership stopped the mingling between the Holdeman and OGBB youth back in the 70s, and with the exception of a couple good friends there, I was consistently reminded that I was outside of the only guaranteed "worthy" part of the Church. And respectfully, the over-generalization of the OP could equally apply in my Holdeman experiences, even though I have found a few exceptions (notably among the younger generation), which has been encouraging!

Wife: churchindex.org has redeemed itself from its Swiss brethren exclusivity. There is a German Baptist church mentioned on there in Oregon.

Church Index is a project with a vision for linking people in search of a church to a supportive community of believers, and for facilitating connections with churches that are more isolated. There are many ministries, churches, and individuals who receive continuous requests from people who are looking for a church that is faithful to the teachings of Jesus.

Our mission is to create and maintain a public database of Anabaptist and similar churches from around the world who strive to live out the teachings of the New Testament and who recognize other churches with similar faith and practice, as being part of the church of Jesus.

Apparently, Cory Anderson’s group is Beachy Amish, and their map just shows the Amish Mennonite affiliated churches, but you can send a Contacts Request for other anabaptist churches, and that’s probably how we got connected with the one apostolic church over there. http://www.beachyam.org/churches.htm

[Neto]

....
Oh, okay... nevermind? I think you found your problem, and once again, it is not Swiss anabaptists excluding, it is others (yourself, in this case), who are choosing to elf-exclude.

Please define "elf-exclude" for me. Google just brought up something to do with programming....

[Praxis+Theodicy]

....
Oh, okay... nevermind? I think you found your problem, and once again, it is not Swiss anabaptists excluding, it is others (yourself, in this case), who are choosing to elf-exclude.

Please define "elf-exclude" for me. Google just brought up something to do with programming....

Definition:
1) the practice of excluding elves from your society.
2) A corruption of "self-exclude," often stemming from faulty keyboards.

[Praxis+Theodicy]

Wife: churchindex.org has redeemed itself from its Swiss brethren exclusivity. There is a German Baptist church mentioned on there in Oregon.

I just checked, and here are at least 38 German Baptist churches listed on the sight from Washington State all the way down to Florida and everywhere in-between. I think it's all of the "Old German Baptist Brethren, New Conference". Which makes sense. The recent split between Old and New Conference was at least partly over the desire to affiliate with other anabaptist groups and participate in cross-denominational work, or to be a bit more sequestered. For this reason, you wouldn't see "Old Conference" on there out of respect for their wishes.

It looks like there are 20 Dunkard Brethren churches on churchindex as well.

[Heirbyadoption]

I suppose I could spin tales about German Baptists (and their admirers, such as the Boston crowd) I have overhead expressing concern that anyone who is not fully immersed has no chance of salvation, but I think that would be a caricature as well, and also would not reflect current belief and practice.

I struck a nerve, I see. And if by the "Boston crowd", you refer to the Followers of the Way group, their denominational heritage is Cambellite/Church of Christ, not Brethren nor Anabaptist, and they are by far unashamedly more immersing baptismal regenerationists in their expressed doctrine than anything I've ever heard from OGBBs, except for a couple ultraconservative offshoots... And real life experiences have indeed born out that your chosen Russian/Dutch heritage Menno group really does generally practice a good bit of separatism from other Anabaptists (Swiss, Russian, or otherwise), whether you feel that is true or relevant to this conversation. But I detracted from addressing the unfortunate overgeneralization of the OP by sharing my experiences of some of the similarities in your own chosen Russian Menno group when compared to the generalized situation of the OP, and for that, I do apologize.

To answer the OP question more directly - a possible implication in this thread is that Swiss Anabaptists deliberate practice ethnic separation from other Anabaptist. What ethnic separation there is, often seems to be more by default than an active attempt to do so, and is due in large part to cultural differences (food, stories, dress, shared memories, etc), a sufficient pool of marriage candidates in their groups without having to branch farther, maintaining a shared language (the platt/deutsch speakers, anyway) as a tool for culture-maintenance, etc, etc. Few of these things (outside of perhaps the Amish and some conservative Menno sects) are deliberate separatist efforts - the ethnic separatism listed in the OP seems more resultant from a lack of deliberately attempting to homogenize with others outside their group, and per the context of this thread, Russian Mennos and possibly Apostolics... To use a natural illustration, migrations typically are less likely to happen unless herds run out of food or water or are fleeing a threat. So maybe the simple answer (and I realize it doesn't fit perfectly because of the overgeneralization of the OP) is that many Swiss Anabaptist are ethnically separate from other Anabaptist because they don't deliberately attempt to integrate with them, not because they are trying to stay ethnically separate from them on purpose. There is also the valid thought of how far can a group reach out to integrate with other groups, a bit like the emotional reservoir of an individual who can only consistently connect with so many different people - I'm not sure where that line is for Swiss Anabaptists, particularly if we're going to speak of them as a whole- maybe it IS far out enough to start homogenizing their Swiss Anabaptist culture with Russian Menno brothers and sisters or the Apostolics, and their associated cultures and bloodlines, etc...

Having said all that, I'd be interested to know what practical solution you might propose for Swiss Anabaptists to deliberately decrease the ethnic separation between them and other Anabaptists?

[ohio jones]

Part of the separation between Swiss/German and Dutch/Prussian/Russian streams can be traced to history and chronology. Swiss/German Anabaptists immigrated in the 18th and early 19th centuries. By the time the Dutch/Prussian/Russian Anabaptists started to arrive in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the Swiss/German settlements in PA, VA, ON, OH, IN, etc. were well established in fairly large communities.

The new arrivals from Russia, many of whom were farmers, would not have been able to find sufficient farmland in already-settled places like Lancaster County. Due to the cultural and linguistic differences, as well as generous offers from government and the railroads to settle sparsely occupied land, the later immigrants ended up in places like Kansas and the Canadian prairie.

Ethnic integration would have been much more likely if both groups had arrived in North America around the same time.

[ohio jones]

It looks like there are 20 Dunkard Brethren churches on churchindex as well.

In other words, all of them.

[Swiss Brah]

Part of the separation between Swiss/German and Dutch/Prussian/Russian streams can be traced to history and chronology. Swiss/German Anabaptists immigrated in the 18th and early 19th centuries. By the time the Dutch/Prussian/Russian Anabaptists started to arrive in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the Swiss/German settlements in PA, VA, ON, OH, IN, etc. were well established in fairly large communities.

The new arrivals from Russia, many of whom were farmers, would not have been able to find sufficient farmland in already-settled places like Lancaster County. Due to the cultural and linguistic differences, as well as generous offers from government and the railroads to settle sparsely occupied land, the later immigrants ended up in places like Kansas and the Canadian prairie.

Ethnic integration would have been much more likely if both groups had arrived in North America around the same time.

Well said. The same phenomenon occurred within the ACC and led to the ACCA / ACCN split in the first decade of the 20th century. Interestingly, the same split was mirrored in Western Europe within ethnically homogenous churches splitting depending on which of the US elders their own elders were aligning with.

[barnhart]

Part of the separation between Swiss/German and Dutch/Prussian/Russian streams can be traced to history and chronology. Swiss/German Anabaptists immigrated in the 18th and early 19th centuries. By the time the Dutch/Prussian/Russian Anabaptists started to arrive in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the Swiss/German settlements in PA, VA, ON, OH, IN, etc. were well established in fairly large communities.

The new arrivals from Russia, many of whom were farmers, would not have been able to find sufficient farmland in already-settled places like Lancaster County. Due to the cultural and linguistic differences, as well as generous offers from government and the railroads to settle sparsely occupied land, the later immigrants ended up in places like Kansas and the Canadian prairie.

Ethnic integration would have been much more likely if both groups had arrived in North America around the same time.

I see slightly different origins, different histories, different immigration patterns... I guess I am surprised at how close they are, not how distant.