Gaza's Irrational Hatred

[Szdfan]

To be sure, and I think all of us here recognize the complexity of the situation and the deep suffering on both sides. Nevertheless, the war could end today if Hamas were to surrender and release the hostages.

At this point, I'm not convinced about that.

[ken_sylvania]

Once could also say that this particular battle could also end today if Israel just turned it Army around and retreated back to its borders where it was before 10/7.

Our semitic expert, Lex might be able to tell us better but it's my understanding that Jews have a hang-up about leaving hostages behind.

Yes, but the only reason there are any Israeli hostages in the first place is the egregious incompetence of Netanyahu's government. Had they actually been doing their jobs, Hamas would not have gotten 20 ft. into Israel before being gunned down. Instead they had the bulk of their military deployed in the West Bank to prop up their settlement policies. They are the ones who are to blame for the conundrum they are in. And the longer they fight this war the more they are trying to get Israelis to forget that.

Israel isn't going to get the remaining hostages free through military force anyway. That much is obvious. To date they have only manage to free two hostages through force and accidentally kill 3 more. All the remaining hostages that have been freed were freed through diplomacy, not force. And continuing the war isn't likely to free the others either. It is more likely to kill them.

Talk about victim blaming. Is that what you would tell your girls if they ever got raped - that it's their fault for not packing heat and killing their attackers?

[Szdfan]

Putin=Evil
Hamas=Justified

I don't think anyone here is saying that or justifying Hamas. I think both sides have a lot of blood on their hands. I think both sides are perpetrators and victims.

[Josh]

Putin=Evil
Hamas=Justified

I don't think anyone here is saying that or justifying Hamas. I think both sides have a lot of blood on their hands. I think both sides are perpetrators and victims.

But it’s a popular right wing clickbait media talking point that loads of people are pro Hamas, so everyone who reads that stuff keeps repeating it.

[Ken]

Our semitic expert, Lex might be able to tell us better but it's my understanding that Jews have a hang-up about leaving hostages behind.

Yes, but the only reason there are any Israeli hostages in the first place is the egregious incompetence of Netanyahu's government. Had they actually been doing their jobs, Hamas would not have gotten 20 ft. into Israel before being gunned down. Instead they had the bulk of their military deployed in the West Bank to prop up their settlement policies. They are the ones who are to blame for the conundrum they are in. And the longer they fight this war the more they are trying to get Israelis to forget that.

Israel isn't going to get the remaining hostages free through military force anyway. That much is obvious. To date they have only manage to free two hostages through force and accidentally kill 3 more. All the remaining hostages that have been freed were freed through diplomacy, not force. And continuing the war isn't likely to free the others either. It is more likely to kill them.

Talk about victim blaming. Is that what you would tell your girls if they ever got raped - that it's their fault for not packing heat and killing their attackers?

I'm doing absolutely no victim blaming here at all. The hostages are not to blame for their capture.

The blame for this is shared between Hamas and the malfeasance of the Israeli government, none of whom are currently being held hostage or victims.

To use your rape analogy it would be like the following:

1. Known rapists are being detained/confined to a prison next to a town and there are guards with unlimited resources charged with guarding the perimeter of the prison so that people in the town on the other side of the fence remain safe.

2. The prison guards decide to abandon their posts and go off to some different town to engage in some unrelated project

3. Rapists get free and rape people in the town because there is no one there to stop them.

Who is at fault here? The rapists, obviously. But also the prison guards who neglected their primary duty to keep the town safe. That is what the townspeople were paying them for.

Nowhere in this scenario is anyone blaming the rape victims for their own rapes.

And with respect to Gaza, there is actually more victim blaming going on by those who say that the deaths of 30,000 Gazans is the fault of the Gazans themselves, because they failed to rid themselves of Hamas and now Israel has to do it for them.

[ken_sylvania]

Yes, but the only reason there are any Israeli hostages in the first place is the egregious incompetence of Netanyahu's government. Had they actually been doing their jobs, Hamas would not have gotten 20 ft. into Israel before being gunned down. Instead they had the bulk of their military deployed in the West Bank to prop up their settlement policies. They are the ones who are to blame for the conundrum they are in. And the longer they fight this war the more they are trying to get Israelis to forget that.

Israel isn't going to get the remaining hostages free through military force anyway. That much is obvious. To date they have only manage to free two hostages through force and accidentally kill 3 more. All the remaining hostages that have been freed were freed through diplomacy, not force. And continuing the war isn't likely to free the others either. It is more likely to kill them.

Talk about victim blaming. Is that what you would tell your girls if they ever got raped - that it's their fault for not packing heat and killing their attackers?

I'm doing absolutely no victim blaming here at all. The hostages are not to blame for their capture.

The blame for this is shared between Hamas and the malfeasance of the Israeli government, none of whom are currently being held hostage or victims.

To use your rape analogy it would be like the following:

1. Known rapists are being detained/confined to a prison next to a town and there are guards with unlimited resources charged with guarding the perimeter of the prison so that people in the town on the other side of the fence remain safe.

2. The prison guards decide to abandon their posts and go off to some different town to engage in some unrelated project

3. Rapists get free and rape people in the town because there is no one there to stop them.

Who is at fault here? The rapists, obviously. But also the prison guards who neglected their primary duty to keep the town safe. That is what the townspeople were paying them for.

Nowhere in this scenario is anyone blaming the rape victims for their own rapes.

And with respect to Gaza, there is actually more victim blaming going on by those who say that the deaths of 30,000 Gazans is the fault of the Gazans themselves, because they failed to rid themselves of Hamas and now Israel has to do it for them.

You said that "...the only reason there are any Israeli hostages in the first place is the egregious incompetence of Netanyahu's government." In making that statement, you were saying that Hamas had no fault whatsoever - that the fault for the attack was that of the Israeli government alone. That is victim blaming.

[Ken]

You said that "...the only reason there are any Israeli hostages in the first place is the egregious incompetence of Netanyahu's government." In making that statement, you were saying that Hamas had no fault whatsoever - that the fault for the attack was that of the Israeli government alone. That is victim blaming.

Nonsense. Powerful governments are not victims.

That Hamas is a terrorist organization is a given. It is their core ideology and strategy. They are not secret about it. How the Israeli government chooses to respond to that fact is the area of military strategy and policy. Israel's government chose to ignore and downplay that threat in the service of other policy objectives, namely promoting illegal settlements in the West Bank. And the current war and hostage situation is the predictable result. The hostages are the product of policy decisions by the Israeli government.

Your argument that the Israeli government and Netanyahu are the victims here is absurd when it was they who were charged with security in the first place.

Your argument would be like saying the Biden Administration is the VICTIM because there are waves of illegal migration at the southern border. The fact that there are millions of poor people south of the border who are seeking to immigrate to the US is a given. That is the world we live in. How the US government RESPONDS to that reality is the area of policy. And if that policy is done poorly then we see waves of immigrants flooding our cities. The Biden Administration and Congress are not the VICTIMS of this in any way. It is their policies that have caused the predictable result. We can argue about who is more to blame, Congress or the Administration. But by no stretch are either of them victims of circumstance. They have the power to control circumstances. Just like the Israeli government.

[Lex]

Just as a tip: find out who financed Hamas and ISIS. Since I was warned, I have to be a bit more careful. But I can help you: Hamas was founded by (you know who) to prevent a two-state solution and ISIS was founded by (you know who) to weaken the Shiites/Iran.

[Josh]

Just as a tip: find out who financed Hamas and ISIS. Since I was warned, I have to be a bit more careful. But I can help you: Hamas was founded by (you know who) to prevent a two-state solution and ISIS was founded by (you know who) to weaken the Shiites/Iran.

The answer is that Netanyahu and overall his allies in Likud and other far right parties did so.

The centrist and left wing opposition (who are mostly all Jewish, by the way) opposed this and spoke out against it. Shimon Peres was ready for a two state solution. But Arafat rejected it, probably to hold on to power. And then a far right assassin murdered Peres.

So. I guess “you know who” is the right wing alliance of political parties in Israel?

[ohio jones]

Since I was warned, I have to be a bit more careful.

How about avoiding the subject entirely.