The Catholic Faith in a Nutshell

[Soloist]

Soloist, you’re still an angry person I can see. Names, dates and the parish, diocese and parish address will assist in verifying your story. Without that information, we cannot consider your story truthful.
Back to the banned bench for you.

Firstly, you should already know if you are as academically knowledgeable as you claim. That would be a HIPAA violation that would cause risk to my license not to mention invading the privacy of the family I work for.
Secondly, you have refused to ever provide any proof of anything, age, academics, “plain Catholic” and certainly not any of the information you just requested. Thirdly, I have denied being angry and offered to provide you with personal references to show my character. Fourthly, you have been found out to lie and forum history shows clearly and rather then admit a mistake, you doubled down in your lie. Fifthly, the “we” refers only to you.

[Chris]

Max,

Can you explain why the Catholic Church forbids marriage when it’s explained as wrong by Paul?

1Ti 4:3  Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Or the practice of calling priests father when Jesus forbids the practice for us

Mat 23:7  And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8  But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9  And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10  Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ

This wasn’t speaking of parents, the passage is addressed about the leaders so that argument is flawed to begin with.

Be careful.
There are really 2 major "Catholics".

1) The Roman Catholic Church
2) The Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church

Roman Catholics do not have married priests.
Eastern Orthodox do have married priests so long as the priest is married before ordination. If he is ordained single he cannot be married.

The Great Schism ultimately divided the Catholic church. There have been various attempts to re-unify. It's both sad, exciting, yet nearly impossible on both sides.

That said there is heavy respect.

Here is a Georgian Orthodox church inviting Orthodox singers to sing "Our Father" in Aramaic in the Pope's presence. It's beautiful, exciting, sad, all mixed into the same package. Reunification I believe would be near impossible as it spans far and wide. Basically, the same issues of the schism would still exist.


Generally they believe in many of the same things. Same Trinity. Almost the same creed. So they are there, but at a distance and will probably always be.

[Josh]

Never heard of “Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church”. Maybe you meant “Greek Catholic”.

Within Catholicism there are 24 particular churches consisting of 6 major rites and then more obscure ones. All 24 churches have married priests, including the Latin Rite, which is the largest church; an example would be those with holy orders in the Anglican Use of the Latin Rite. In my local area the Byzantine and Latin Rites are well-represented, and an acquaintance of mine’s dad was a priest in the Anglican Use.

[quote]
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
[/quote]

Growing up I knew some people who thought their children should call their dad “papa”. Kind of the opposite of R&S books…

[Josh]

Never heard of “Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church”. Maybe you meant “Greek Catholic”.

Within Catholicism there are 24 particular churches consisting of 6 major rites and then more obscure ones. All 24 churches have married priests, including the Latin Rite, which is the largest church; an example would be those with holy orders in the Anglican Use of the Latin Rite. In my local area the Byzantine and Latin Rites are well-represented, and an acquaintance of mine’s dad was a priest in the Anglican Use.

Nonetheless, nearly all ordained men with holy orders are celibate priests within the Latin Rite. It is a fair question to ask why this is.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Growing up I knew some people who thought their children should call their dad “papa”. Kind of the opposite of R&S books…

[Soloist]

Be careful.
There are really 2 major "Catholics".

1) The Roman Catholic Church
2) The Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church

Roman Catholics do not have married priests.
Eastern Orthodox do have married priests so long as the priest is married before ordination. If he is ordained single he cannot be married.

The Great Schism ultimately divided the Catholic church. There have been various attempts to re-unify. It's both sad, exciting, yet nearly impossible on both sides.

That said there is heavy respect.

Generally they believe in many of the same things. Same Trinity. Almost the same creed. So they are there, but at a distance and will probably always be.

I was asking Max as he is one who claims to be Catholic on here but he has a tendency to try and ignore being called out.
Generally many Christian groups believe the same things yet there cannot be unity. There are major doctrinal differences with the Catholics and the Orthodox. Some being the pope, who Mary is, role of the Holy Spirit, church authority plays a role here, neither side is going to accept giving up authority to the other.

I would agree with the Orthodox view on Ordained and marriage. Its logical and I think other groups have to play twister to somehow justify their positions. I don't however, agree with their hierarchy structure nor do I agree with the Mennonite groups forming their own Orthodox hierarchy structure. I think its a form of religious corruption to crave power and to create more control and "oversight" Not lording it over is exactly what the Catholic church and the Orthodox have done and its exactly what Eastern is becoming and Nationwide, Pilgrim to a lesser degree. Having multiple churches and having 1 bishop for several, having a meeting of bishops to determine all church polity, having bishops over regions and lesser bishops. Its one thing to provide oversight to a new church, but at some point there needs to be local leadership who knows the members rather then a bishop from other states. Orthodox and Catholic models have existed for centuries and while I disagree with them, I don't overly care what they do.

This is of course bunny trailing here, and maybe a new topic would be better if you wanted to continue.

[Coifi]

Orthodox Christian here! I figured I would jump in to offer clarification.

Never heard of “Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church”. Maybe you meant “Greek Catholic”.
Within Catholicism there are 24 particular churches consisting of 6 major rites and then more obscure ones.

The "Eastern Orthodox Church" is the name generally given to a collection of churches which have their roots in the Christian east (Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople). As a consequence of missionary work and immigration patterns over a couple thousand years, these churches are no longer just in the "East". Unfortunately, these churches have not been in communion with the Roman See since the turn of the first millennium.

Are you lumping Orthodox Christians such as myself in with Roman Catholic Christians or were you referring to Byzantine Rite Catholics? Also, out of curiosity, what do you mean by "a priest in the Anglican use." Was he just an Anglican priest, then?

Having multiple churches and having 1 bishop for several, having a meeting of bishops to determine all church polity, having bishops over regions and lesser bishops. Its one thing to provide oversight to a new church, but at some point there needs to be local leadership who knows the members rather then a bishop from other states.

Orthodox Church congregations do have local leadership - the priest or priests which are serving them. These priests are lead and served by the bishop in a particular diocese (i.e., diocese of Western PA) and these bishops are lead and served by the metropolitan. In the case of the Orthodox Church in America, we have the most blessed Tikon, Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada. The diocesan bishops are listed on the given website as well, if you are curious.

That's the sanitized version, of course. In reality, there are multiple jurisdictions (i.e., Russian, Ukrainian, Romanian, Greek, Antiochian, etc...) covering the same geographic locations. It shouldn't be that way, but immigration patterns, selfishness, laziness, etc...

[Josh]

Orthodox Christian here! I figured I would jump in to offer clarification.

Never heard of “Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church”. Maybe you meant “Greek Catholic”.
Within Catholicism there are 24 particular churches consisting of 6 major rites and then more obscure ones.

The "Eastern Orthodox Church" is the name generally given to a collection of churches which have their roots in the Christian east (Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople). As a consequence of missionary work and immigration patterns over a couple thousand years, these churches are no longer just in the "East". Unfortunately, these churches have not been in communion with the Roman See since the turn of the first millennium.

Chris said “Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church”, which is not a term with which I am familiar. The rest of my post was about the Roman Catholic Church, not Eastern Orthodoxy.

Nearly all EO churches are in terms of membership are in well, the historic East, with half of the constituency being in Russia.

Are you lumping Orthodox Christians such as myself in with Roman Catholic Christians or were you referring to Byzantine Rite Catholics?

I was discussing Roman Catholicism (including the 23 particular churches that are Byzantine, Alexandrian, or otherwise not Latin), not Eastern Orthodoxy.

Also, out of curiosity, what do you mean by "a priest in the Anglican use." Was he just an Anglican priest, then?

No, he was a Catholic priest practicing in the Anglican Use under the Latin Rite. Such priests are usually married.

Orthodox Church congregations do have local leadership - the priest or priests which are serving them. These priests are lead and served by the bishop in a particular diocese (i.e., diocese of Western PA) and these bishops are lead and served by the metropolitan. In the case of the Orthodox Church in America, we have the most blessed Tikon, Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada. The diocesan bishops are listed on the given website as well, if you are curious.

My understanding of EO polity is that it is episcopal and heriarchical, although the various archbishops and patriarchs are on equal footing with one another. The congregations do not choose their own leaders or choose their affiliations. There is a heirarchy of priests to bishops to archbishops to patriarchs. (Please correct me if I am mistaken.)

That's the sanitized version, of course. In reality, there are multiple jurisdictions (i.e., Russian, Ukrainian, Romanian, Greek, Antiochian, etc...) covering the same geographic locations. It shouldn't be that way, but immigration patterns, selfishness, laziness, etc...

I have always been comfortable with different ethnic churches in the same area when an area is highly multi ethnic. It seems to work well for Apostolic Christians, Orthodox, and (Greek) Catholicism.

[Soloist]

Having multiple churches and having 1 bishop for several, having a meeting of bishops to determine all church polity, having bishops over regions and lesser bishops. Its one thing to provide oversight to a new church, but at some point there needs to be local leadership who knows the members rather then a bishop from other states.

Orthodox Church congregations do have local leadership - the priest or priests which are serving them. These priests are lead and served by the bishop in a particular diocese (i.e., diocese of Western PA) and these bishops are lead and served by the metropolitan. In the case of the Orthodox Church in America, we have the most blessed Tikon, Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada. The diocesan bishops are listed on the given website as well, if you are curious.

That's the sanitized version, of course. In reality, there are multiple jurisdictions (i.e., Russian, Ukrainian, Romanian, Greek, Antiochian, etc...) covering the same geographic locations. It shouldn't be that way, but immigration patterns, selfishness, laziness, etc...

I don't dispute your claims. I was actually speaking of Eastern and to a lesser degree Nationwide and Pilgrim.

I know when I was in Oregon the priest I spoke to had a Bishop in California... I have seen that in Mennonites and Charity and think its unacceptable. That being said... the priest can offer the eucharist? Baptize? Perform marriage? I mean the Orthodox function differently then the Mennonites do and a Bishop tends to have a little more impact on day to day changes in the church. The doctrine and practice of the Orthodox is relatively stable yes? Is there a function that requires the Bishop outside of priest discipline or control? aka does he actually have an impact on the laity?

[Coifi]

I know when I was in Oregon the priest I spoke to had a Bishop in California... I have seen that in Mennonites and Charity and think its unacceptable. That being said... the priest can offer the eucharist? Baptize? Perform marriage? I mean the Orthodox function differently then the Mennonites do and a Bishop tends to have a little more impact on day to day changes in the church. The doctrine and practice of the Orthodox is relatively stable yes? Is there a function that requires the Bishop outside of priest discipline or control? aka does he actually have an impact on the laity?

Got it.

In regards to the distance (Oregon/California), I'd need to know what jurisdiction the church was to understand the situation better. However, to simplify things, I will assume this was an OCA parish. That would mean Oregon would fall under the diocese of the west which include eight states from Oregon to Hawaii. In those states, there are 59 parishes. Thus, given the model in my previous post, Archbishop Benjamin leads and serves 59 parish priests. There is a lot of distance to cover, but serving and leading about 60 people isn't too much. That's a medium sized parish. How it works is tough to effectively communicate, though. It doesn't help that I haven't been Orthodox terribly long, either. I could have my wife explain more if people are curious. She would know more as she's grown up in the Orthodox Church.

Doctrine and practice is relatively stable. The main service of the church is mostly the same as it was circa the 4th century (the earliest manuscript of the service which we have). The hierarchical structures were similar (although I haven't really explored that much). Dogma is a more complicated conversation because it requires an attempt to define it and that's hard. The simple way to treat it, though, is to say that we dogmatically hold to the 7 ecumenical councils. If a church doesn't, then they are not Orthodox.

So, bishops grant permission to priests to serve the Eucharist and other sacraments. Without the bishop's permission, a priest could not serve. If a priest were to serve the Eucharist without the permission of their bishop, he would be considered a schismatic. In that manner, the bishop impacts the laity a lot. There are definitely more, but that seems to me the most important. If you were asking about how often laity interface with the bishop, then it is at least once a year but most likely more.

[Ken]

I know when I was in Oregon the priest I spoke to had a Bishop in California... I have seen that in Mennonites and Charity and think its unacceptable. That being said... the priest can offer the eucharist? Baptize? Perform marriage? I mean the Orthodox function differently then the Mennonites do and a Bishop tends to have a little more impact on day to day changes in the church. The doctrine and practice of the Orthodox is relatively stable yes? Is there a function that requires the Bishop outside of priest discipline or control? aka does he actually have an impact on the laity?

Got it.

In regards to the distance (Oregon/California), I'd need to know what jurisdiction the church was to understand the situation better. However, to simplify things, I will assume this was an OCA parish. That would mean Oregon would fall under the diocese of the west which include eight states from Oregon to Hawaii. In those states, there are 59 parishes. Thus, given the model in my previous post, Archbishop Benjamin leads and serves 59 parish priests. There is a lot of distance to cover, but serving and leading about 60 people isn't too much. That's a medium sized parish. How it works is tough to effectively communicate, though. It doesn't help that I haven't been Orthodox terribly long, either. I could have my wife explain more if people are curious. She would know more as she's grown up in the Orthodox Church.

Doctrine and practice is relatively stable. The main service of the church is mostly the same as it was circa the 4th century (the earliest manuscript of the service which we have). The hierarchical structures were similar (although I haven't really explored that much). Dogma is a more complicated conversation because it requires an attempt to define it and that's hard. The simple way to treat it, though, is to say that we dogmatically hold to the 7 ecumenical councils. If a church doesn't, then they are not Orthodox.

So, bishops grant permission to priests to serve the Eucharist and other sacraments. Without the bishop's permission, a priest could not serve. If a priest were to serve the Eucharist without the permission of their bishop, he would be considered a schismatic. In that manner, the bishop impacts the laity a lot. There are definitely more, but that seems to me the most important. If you were asking about how often laity interface with the bishop, then it is at least once a year but most likely more.

It isn't just the bishops. The priests are often not local. I don't know how Orthodox do it, but the priest at our local Catholic parish was shipped in from India and this was his first posting outside of the US. that isn't something you would ever see in any sort of protestant church in my experience.