Gelassenheit: Your definitions? Your praxis?

[MaxPC]

Swiss Bro - going back to my OP:
Is this a value emphasized in your fellowship?

How do you put it into practice in daily life?

[Swiss Bro]

Swiss Bro - going back to my OP:
Is this a value emphasized in your fellowship?

How do you put it into practice in daily life?

Afaik the concept of Gelassenheit is not taught in the Fröhlich churches but I am happy to be corrected if it is the case in any of the brethren of denominations outside of the ETG.

[Bootstrap]

Interesting in the context of this thread is that Leidenschaft (passion) is used as the contrary / opposite of Gelassennheit.

That's especially interesting because Leidenschaft is also used in a positive sense to indicate zeal for the Lord's house or zeal for the Lord's commandments.

I suspect we need both passionate zeal and surrender to God's will. Jesus, John the Baptist, Paul, and Peter each demonstrated passionate zeal. Yet Jesus was also fully surrendered, and these other disciples were surrendered to various degrees. If Gelassenheit is the only word in your toolbox, you don't get a John the Baptist or a Paul.

May God give us both zeal and serenity in the appropriate places.

Denn die Leidenschaft für dein Haus hat meine ganze Kraft verzehrt, gegen mich richten sich die Beschimpfungen derer, die sonst dich beschimpfen.

because zeal for your house has consumed me,
and the insults of those who insult you
have fallen on me.

Meine Leidenschaft ´für deine Gebote` verzehrt meine ganze Kraft, denn meine Gegner vergessen deine Worte völlig.

137 You are righteous, Lord,
and your judgments are just.
138 The decrees you issue are righteous
and altogether trustworthy.
139 My anger overwhelms me
because my foes forget your words.

Compare that to the verse you quoted:

Gelassenheit hält auch den Körper gesund,
doch Leidenschaft ist Knochenfraß.

A tranquil heart is life to the body,
but jealousy is rottenness to the bones.

[MaxPC]

Swiss Bro - going back to my OP:
Is this a value emphasized in your fellowship?

How do you put it into practice in daily life?

Afaik the concept of Gelassenheit is not taught in the Fröhlich churches but I am happy to be corrected if it is the case in any of the brethren of denominations outside of the ETG.

Thank you, Swiss Bro. If you don’t mind, what is the ETG?

[silentreader]

I found two other examples of the use of the word in German translations:

Proverbs 14;30 in the Neue Evangelistische Übersetzung

Gelassenheit hält auch den Körper gesund, / doch Leidenschaft ist Knochenfraß.

The Neue Evangelistische is a "free" translation. The more literal translations use "Ein gelassenes Herz" instead (Elberfelder). Luther translates "ein gütiges Herz" which is really not the same thing.

Interesting in the context of this thread is that Leidenschaft (passion) is used as the contrary / opposite of Gelassennheit.

Proverbs 15;4 in the revised Elberfelder:

Gelassenheit der Zunge ist ein Baum des Lebens, aber Falschheit in ihr ist Zerbruch des Geistes.

The unrevised Elberfelder used "Lindigkeit der Zunge" but Lindigkeit is a word nobody uses anymore today. Luther had "eine heilsame Zunge", again somewhat off the mark if you ask me.

I would disagree with the usage of Gelassenheit in Prov. 15:4. Seems to me the word used should be more active positive.

[Bootstrap]

I would disagree with the usage of Gelassenheit in Prov. 15:4. Seems to me the word used should be more active positive.

The UBS Translator's Handbook says this for Proverbs 15:4:

A soft answer turns away wrath: Soft in relation to speech means “gentle,” “kind,” or, as REB|prj:REB89.PRO.15.1 says, “mild.” It is a response without anger or harshness. The importance of kindness and respect in the use of speech is expressed again in 24.26 and 25.15. Answer in this context refers to a response or reply to what someone, perhaps in anger, has said. Turns away translates the causative form of a verb meaning “to turn back.” The thought is that the anger of the first speaker can be set aside or calmed by a gentle response. Wrath is anger or fury. CEV|prj:CEVUS06.PRO.15.1 says “A kind answer soothes angry feelings,” and SPCL|prj:DHH94.PRO.15.1 has “A friendly reply calms anger.” In some languages it may be necessary to expand this line to say, for example, “Reply to a person with gentle words and you will calm their anger.”

[silentreader]

I would disagree with the usage of Gelassenheit in Prov. 15:4. Seems to me the word used should be more active positive.

The UBS Translator's Handbook says this for Proverbs 15:4:

A soft answer turns away wrath: Soft in relation to speech means “gentle,” “kind,” or, as REB|prj:REB89.PRO.15.1 says, “mild.” It is a response without anger or harshness. The importance of kindness and respect in the use of speech is expressed again in 24.26 and 25.15. Answer in this context refers to a response or reply to what someone, perhaps in anger, has said. Turns away translates the causative form of a verb meaning “to turn back.” The thought is that the anger of the first speaker can be set aside or calmed by a gentle response. Wrath is anger or fury. CEV|prj:CEVUS06.PRO.15.1 says “A kind answer soothes angry feelings,” and SPCL|prj:DHH94.PRO.15.1 has “A friendly reply calms anger.” In some languages it may be necessary to expand this line to say, for example, “Reply to a person with gentle words and you will calm their anger.”

I have to admit that my first was a knee-jerk off-the-cuff response. After a bit of thought I would choose "soothing", perhaps.

[Swiss Bro]

Soothing would be best translated with heilsam as Luther did. Mild would be well translated with „Lindigkeit“ but as I said that fell out of use. I agree that Gelassenheit der Zunge sounds strange.

[Swiss Bro]

Thank you, Swiss Bro. If you don’t mind, what is the ETG?

Please refer to: http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... 1&start=20

In short it's the "assimilated" arm of the "facial hair tolerating" branch of the Fröhlich churches in Western Europe.

On my map of worldwide Fröhlich congregations, it's the yellow dots (zoom into Switzerland/Germany to see them):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=11CfYa ... sp=sharing

[Bootstrap]

I sometimes wonder if we would be better off using everyday English words that are easier to understand. I like "let go and let God", both as a means of prayer and a way to live life. It's certainly an area I could use a lot of growth in.

This was really my point with my joke about the "glass being too high". Often when words from other languages are used, there is more "meaning" to the term than can be found in the literal meaning of the word in that language, what one might call "theological baggage". (also all of the Latin terms that are thrown around, like "sola scriptura".)

I agree. This can happen even with Greek or Hebrew words - someone gives a sermon on grace, tells you the Greek word, and then tells you what it REALLY means, bringing in his understanding of the theology, and then insists that his theology is what the word means "in the original Greek". For Greek and Hebrew, I think most of us should trust the translations, those who can should carefully look at the original meanings and be careful not to conflate language with theology. If we want to know what Jesus really said, sometimes someone needs to look carefully at the language in which he said it.

But words take on rich theological meanings for good reasons. Words and phrases like 'wine', 'bread', and 'foot washing' have a very different meaning in the Christian context. These meanings may be significantly different in various Christian traditions or cultures, and we can learn from each other by seeing how others understand these things. The original text of the Bible was not German, so we can get along just fine without knowing what German words mean.

Jesus never used the word Gelassenheit.

But if we want to understand Dutch or German spiritual traditions, it can be helpful - and interesting - to see how this word has been used in those languages. Gelassenheit(Tauler) and Gelassenheit(Suesse) may be essentially the same, Gelassenheit(Denck) is at least quite similar. Gelassenheit(vanBracht) brings in a strong connection to martyrdom, and may is at least quite similar to Gelassenheit(Philippite).

Gelassenheit(Hutterite) seems significantly different, according to GAMEO:

In continuation of such thoughts, the Hutterites made the term Gelassenheit their own in a more earthly sense: the relinquishing of one's worldly possessions, in other words "absolute personal poverty," and subsequently the sharing of all earthly goods by the entire group. In fact, thus interpreted Gelassenheit becomes a central teaching of the Hutterite brethren. The great Article Book of about 1547 and its abbreviated version, the Five Articles, are very outspoken in this regard; e.g., the third article is entitled, Von der wahren Gelassenheit and christlichen Gemeinschaft der Güter (Geschicht-Buch, 219). The idea is repeated in numberless tracts. Here hardly any mysticism is left; Gelassenheit is rather brought into close proximity to brotherly love which, the teaching goes, requires complete communal life. That Gelassenheit as preparedness to martyrdom was not forgotten, either, can likewise be proved from Hutterite literature. The Klein-Geschichtsbuch der Hutterischen Brüder mentions Gelassenheit at seven different places, from 1529 to 1792 (see Index). On page 16, for instance, we read, "We should expect the Lord's work and Cross daily, as we have surrendered unto His discipline (Zucht) and have agreed (verwilligt) to accept whatever He may send upon us with thanksgiving, and to bear it with patience" (1529).

I was not able to find either the Klein-Geschichtsbuch der Hutterischen Brüder or Die Fünf Artikel des Grössten Streites Zwischen Uns und der Welt online. I would be interested in knowing more about how they understand this word. Are these resources available online? They should be old enough, but I can't seem to find them.

If I want to understand this word in modern Mennonite and Anabaptist congregations that still use it, what should I read?