Who speaks for the black community?

[joshuabgood]

GaryK, do you think it is true that very few people in the CA world would agree with my assessment that we have a cultural arrogance problem?

[Ms. Izzie]

I'm just wondering what criteria needs to be met in order to be worthy of being listened to if we find ourselves in the minority on any given issue.

It's the worth that humans have been given by being made in the image of God.

[GaryK]

GaryK, do you think it is true that very few people in the CA world would agree with my assessment that we have a cultural arrogance problem?

Yes I do. And the fact that you think it's important enough to talk about makes me believe that you do as well. Otherwise you wouldn't say things like "we think..." "we say..." and "the fact that the CA world resists mask wearing so vociferously is a tell for one of our cultural proclivities, that we have been discussing in other threads."

If the majority would believe they have cultural arrogance, what would be the point in telling them they do?

This doesn't mean your assessment is wrong. I'm just wondering why you expect anyone to hear you if minority voices on any given issue should not be listened to.

And again I am not suggesting we listen to inflammatory voices like CO.

[Ken]

May I ask why you are so hard on the CA world in regard to the beam you keep mentioning? I'm pretty sure the vast majority of CA's would disagree with you. Why should people listen to you if the majority say you don't speak for them?

Wow, Thanks Gary. You made my point better than I could!

On the one hand to insist that we listen to the majority of black people because they understand their experience much better than a very small minority of black people and then on the other hand expect us to listen to a very small minority of conservative Anabaptists because the majority of CA's apparently don't really understand their own experiences leaves me scratching my head.

And let me be quick to say that I am in no way endorsing people like Candace Owens here. I'm just wondering what criteria needs to be met in order to be worthy of being listened to if we find ourselves in the minority on any given issue.

I think every voice is worth listening to critically. What happens here (and all over FB and other social media forums) is that certain very fringe voices like Candace Owens get posted up as trophies to confirm someone's pre-existing point. So they get amplified far more than they otherwise would deserve.

[joshuabgood]

GaryK, do you think it is true that very few people in the CA world would agree with my assessment that we have a cultural arrogance problem?

Yes I do. And the fact that you think it's important enough to talk about makes me believe that you do as well. Otherwise you wouldn't say things like "we think..." "we say..." and "the fact that the CA world resists mask wearing so vociferously is a tell for one of our cultural proclivities, that we have been discussing in other threads."

If the majority would believe they have cultural arrogance, what would be the point in telling them they do?

This doesn't mean your assessment is wrong. I'm just wondering why you expect anyone to hear you if minority voices on any given issue should not be listened to.

And again I am not suggesting we listen to inflammatory voices like CO.

My feeling is that there actually are quite a few CA folks out there that would be open to what I am bringing if they give it a listen. True, they may not have thought about it the same way, but with some listening and reflecting, I think folks may be open to considering it.

I wouldn't decry all minority opinions outright. Certainly the concept of super majority comes in to play.

I think the issue that must be named however with regard black voices is that it is problematic for white folks to amplify certain black voices, mainly because those voices articulate what they (the white people) actually believe. Rather than carefully listening to a range of community voices and giving that range the same care. With regard to the issues of CO, or others similar voices, this is a real issue and many of the folks in the conversation last night find that frustrating. If in fact people thoughtfully explored the other resources out there, along with talking to their own friends (like Carlos W said in the video I posted) it might feel different.

[GaryK]

Wow, Thanks Gary. You made my point better than I could!

On the one hand to insist that we listen to the majority of black people because they understand their experience much better than a very small minority of black people and then on the other hand expect us to listen to a very small minority of conservative Anabaptists because the majority of CA's apparently don't really understand their own experiences leaves me scratching my head.

And let me be quick to say that I am in no way endorsing people like Candace Owens here. I'm just wondering what criteria needs to be met in order to be worthy of being listened to if we find ourselves in the minority on any given issue.

I think every voice is worth listening to critically. What happens here (and all over FB and other social media forums) is that certain very fringe voices like Candace Owens get posted up as trophies to confirm someone's pre-existing point. So they get amplified far more than they otherwise would deserve.

I don't disagree but isn't the same thing happening on the other side as well? For example, Malcolm X was cited a number of times on MN while people like Voddie Baucham, a Christian pastor, was sort of downplayed as someone people on the other side use to buttress their view.

[joshuabgood]

Not sure if you referring to me Gary, but I listened carefully to a number of Bauchams sermon as requested. And I affirm a lot of what he brought and brings. I mentioned that I think some of the prophetic voices like his, and others like Sowell, etc, are respectable beyond what some of the voices like CO, bring.

[GaryK]

Not sure if you referring to me Gary, but I listened carefully to a number of Bauchams sermon as requested. And I affirm a lot of what he brought and brings. I mentioned that I think some of the prophetic voices like his, and others like Sowell, etc, are respectable beyond what some of the voices like CO, bring.

My main point was that Malcolm X is used by white people to promote a certain viewpoint because what he had to say aligns with that viewpoint. On the other hand these same people caution against white people using Baucham and others to do exactly the same thing. One seems to be okay and the other not. That seems like a double standard to me. The main difference I see is the one is in the majority and the others aren't.

Now that you have listened to Baucham, Sowell and others, would you encourage the majority of black people to listen to and seriously consider what they have to say on racial matters and things they see as problems in black communities?

The reason I ask this question is because I'm convinced that you want the majority of CA folks to listen to and take seriously what you have to say about cultural arrogance. Because you are in the minority on this issue, would you advise CA's who agree with you not to promote what you have to say on this matter but rather listen to the folks who affirm their position? How do you go about deciding when minority voices should be listened to and when they shouldn't? What criteria needs to be met?

I believe we as Christians need to be cautious about this majority narrative. Jesus says that many are on the broad road that leads to destruction and few are on the narrow way that leads to life. I'm using this example only to caution against buying wholesale into this majority narrative, nothing more.

[joshuabgood]

Yes...I would happily recommend that Sowell and Baucham be voices taken seriously.

[AnthonyMartin]

Beam and Speck issues come with special challenges when it comes to communicating about them between two individuals. Sometimes I think it's best if that is an internal process and involves less communication and more introspection. This challenges are magnified when discussing group beams and specks, I suspect.

My thought reading through these dialogues is that I'd recommend more black folks listen to Voddie Baucham and more white folks listen to Bryan Stevenson.

This may be an arrogant thing to say, I'm not quite sure.