Amish Bishop Gets Probation

[temporal1]

Well, I would agree that there was a seriously troubling degree of "moral [relativity]” to the Catholic Church's response to child abuse.

I remember some years ago watching some high level Catholic cleric (the Cardinal from Boston I think) on Nightline or some national new show. And he was giving this long justification about how the Catholic church's understanding of the issue had evolved over time as the explanation for why they had covered up decades of child abuse.

And my Catholic-educated wife (who had attended Catholic schools in Chile from Kindergarten through university) was absolutely livid and white with anger.

The notion that the Catholic church, which preaches moral absolutism on every other single topic, was excusing themselves for their own crimes on this topic by claiming moral relativism and "evolving" understandings was just too much for her.

Deuteronomy and Leviticus call for stoning of rapists. And in Genesis 34 the sons of Jacob slaughtered and plundered an entire city when Shechem defiled their sister. That seems pretty absolute.
The bible is far more definitive about rape and sexual assault than it is about many of the other issues that the Catholic church takes an absolutist position on.

I honestly don't think anyone is really confused about whether it is legally or morally OK to rape and molest children. Not in the Amish community. Not in Catholic parishes. Not anywhere. And especially not men in positions of authority.

i have no joy in saying i’m afraid, without the 1990’s internet, these abuses of hundreds of years, would not be much different. i have no idea of the history prior, but these types of carnal predatory sins/abuses were part of the complaints of the Reformation. Hundreds of years.
Until the internet.

maybe like your wife, i wondered why Church leaders would not follow their professed beliefs? -
Confess. Repent. Submit. Obey.

Not easy. But straightforward. The only authentic way out.

[Ernie]

The Amish, like everyone else, know full well that child sexual abuse is a crime. And they know full well that crimes should be reported to the authorities.

That is a little too strong Ken. Some of us did not know this until the last few years, and I think there are some that still don't know this.

Really? Up until a few years ago you thought it was legal to rape or molest children?

I knew that rape of children was illegal. I did not know that this applied to consenting older teens and that states have different ages for this. I was not aware that it needed to be reported to authorities. I was not aware that an adult touching children inappropriately was a criminal offense, and as such, needed to be reported to authorities. I also didn't know anything about mandatory reporters. Up until about 5 years ago, I was never responsible or aware of any situations like this.

Now with my present job, I get involved in these kinds of situations quite often.

https://aspe.hhs.gov/report/statutory-r ... rse-minors

[steve-in-kville]

I see where Ernie is coming from...

For the sake of constructive dialog, and only for the sake of constructive dialog, how many eyes have been opened (among the conservative circles) since the CAM fiasco came to light last year? How many eyes have yet to be opened?

[Neto]

The Amish, like everyone else, know full well that child sexual abuse is a crime. And they know full well that crimes should be reported to the authorities.

That is a little too strong Ken. Some of us did not know this until the last few years, and I think there are some that still don't know this.

Really? Up until a few years ago you thought it was legal to rape or molest children?

Can you not realize that what Ernie was referring to was the latter part, "And they know full well that crimes should be reported to the authorities."? Yes, he could have been more clear in what he was referencing, but by thinking the best of another, that is the conclusion that should be made - that he was talking about the reporting obligation, not saying that he didn't know that it is illegal to rape or molest a child.

[Judas Maccabeus]

But there is a difference between mandatory reporting of child abuse and covering up the crime of rape or child molestation.

As a teacher I'm covered by mandatory reporting laws. And the basic rule is, when in doubt, report. You are not expected to be an expert, or an investigator. Or to decide for yourself whether something suspicious rises to the level of abuse. That is the responsibility of others. The child abuse laws are very broad-sweeping and cover everything from failing to feed and clothe your children adequately to mental abuse to simple neglect. Mostly they don't deal with sexual abuse at all, but simple neglect and physical abuse. That is very different from rape and child molestation which are, and always have been, actual crimes on their own right.

In this case, two men brought their concerns to the Bishop who didn't just "fail to report" He actively discouraged others from doing so in an attempt to cover up what he knew to be a crime. And the whole scheme came to light when they went ahead and reported the crime anyway.

Pick a different crime. Say murder or kidnapping. Would you have any confusion about whether it is your obligation to report those crimes to the police if you had knowledge of them? I think not.

Of course not....but would the parent that spanked their child and caused a bruise? How big of a bruise would you report? Or would the infant who was dropped when their older sister picked him up, and lost grip. Or the child that showed up to sunday school, having not been fed that am. I have seen all of these in my former evangelical church, and I reported none of it. I did make sure one of the teachers fed the child, and turned it over to the deaconesses, one was a teacher, another a nurse. That is a problem that the church could solve better than a social worker. I regarded all of the above as accidents, or problems we could solve.

This bishop likely needs "educational" punishment. I would not sent him to jail. Old ways die slowly, and sometimes training is needed.

J.M.

That's why I'm drawing a distinction between child abuse and child rape or molestation. They are not the same thing at all. One is a very broad and ambiguous category. The other is a crime under all circumstances.

But yes, abuse reporting can be difficult. I've done it twice in 15 years. I never found out what became of either case. In both cases students came to me with concerns about another student who they suspected was being victimized and I passed it up the chain of command. In one case the problem was a violent alcoholic parent. In the other case it was a possibly abusive boyfriend. Neither was sexual in nature.

Yeah. We TRIED reporting a youth worker when we found out that the senior pastor covered it up, it would have been a year or so later. No case, gals were 16, which is the age of consent in Maryland, and the "Clergy" exception to that only applied if the individual was employed full time. Would not even take the report.

I suspect the youth worker knew that.

J.M.

[Ms. Izzie]

Now with my present job, I get involved in these kinds of situations quite often.

Do these situations involve Anabaptists?

[Ken]

Of course not....but would the parent that spanked their child and caused a bruise? How big of a bruise would you report? Or would the infant who was dropped when their older sister picked him up, and lost grip. Or the child that showed up to sunday school, having not been fed that am. I have seen all of these in my former evangelical church, and I reported none of it. I did make sure one of the teachers fed the child, and turned it over to the deaconesses, one was a teacher, another a nurse. That is a problem that the church could solve better than a social worker. I regarded all of the above as accidents, or problems we could solve.

This bishop likely needs "educational" punishment. I would not sent him to jail. Old ways die slowly, and sometimes training is needed.

J.M.

That's why I'm drawing a distinction between child abuse and child rape or molestation. They are not the same thing at all. One is a very broad and ambiguous category. The other is a crime under all circumstances.

But yes, abuse reporting can be difficult. I've done it twice in 15 years. I never found out what became of either case. In both cases students came to me with concerns about another student who they suspected was being victimized and I passed it up the chain of command. In one case the problem was a violent alcoholic parent. In the other case it was a possibly abusive boyfriend. Neither was sexual in nature.

Yeah. We TRIED reporting a youth worker when we found out that the senior pastor covered it up, it would have been a year or so later. No case, gals were 16, which is the age of consent in Maryland, and the "Clergy" exception to that only applied if the individual was employed full time. Would not even take the report.

I suspect the youth worker knew that.

J.M.

Yes, you can't save the world and solve all of it's problems. When you are talking about older kids, a lot don't want help. All you can do is your fulfil your obligations and be a part of the solution rather than the problem. I imagine most of these case workers are overwhelmed with crisis and have to prioritize. Even teaching in an affluent district it's astonishing how much disfunction and trauma you see.

[Ernie]

Now with my present job, I get involved in these kinds of situations quite often.

Do these situations involve Anabaptists?

Not that I am aware of. People will call our billboard call center and report that they were either abused or abused someone else.

[Ken]

That is a little too strong Ken. Some of us did not know this until the last few years, and I think there are some that still don't know this.

Really? Up until a few years ago you thought it was legal to rape or molest children?

Can you not realize that what Ernie was referring to was the latter part, "And they know full well that crimes should be reported to the authorities."? Yes, he could have been more clear in what he was referencing, but by thinking the best of another, that is the conclusion that should be made - that he was talking about the reporting obligation, not saying that he didn't know that it is illegal to rape or molest a child.

Yes, I was being a bit hyperbolic to make the point.

Child abuse is an enormously broad and ambiguous category that includes everything from simple neglect to physical beatings to the point of permanent injury or death. Most child abuse is not actually sexual in nature. What exactly should be reported and by whom is indeed somewhat ambiguous.

Sex crimes against children such as rape and molestation or child porn are not so ambiguous and never have been. Every state has legal ages of consent that are often different depending on the age of the perpetrator. A 17 year old with a 16 year old may not be statutory rape while a 40 year old with a 16 year old might be, for example. Most of us probably don't even know the exact line in our states because it's not something we ever get close to. We KNOW better.

A sure sign that people actually know when something is wrong is when they strive to keep it secret. Why be secretive if what you are doing is perfectly fine and good? Why brainwash your kids not to talk to their friends or teachers about it? In this case it was a 40-something year old man who confessed to abusing children (who's ages were not reported). The bishop kept the issue secret when the crime was confessed to him, and then later actively tried to maintain that secrecy by discouraging others (ordering them) to not report and stay out "because it was none of their business" To me that suggests: (1) he knew full well that crimes had been committed. This wasn't some ambiguous situation where a parent maybe spanked too hard or something, and (2) he actively covered up the crime by not only keeping it secret himself, but used his position of authority to discourage or prevent others from reporting it themselves.

Reading the article again, I see this was a plea deal. So the bishop actually confessed and plead to the crime and agreed to the punishment. He could have taken the case to trial and made his case to a jury if he truly felt he had done nothing wrong and was innocent.

[Ernie]

Reading the article again, I see this was a plea deal. So the bishop actually confessed and plead to the crime and agreed to the punishment. He could have taken the case to trial and made his case to a jury if he truly felt he had done nothing wrong and was innocent.

Some state laws are enforced and some are not. For example, masks are required in PA when interacting closer than 6' with anyone outside your household, but many Plain Anabaptists have been meeting maskless for months in many states and most places there are no consequences for violations. No one in my church was even aware of this law until they were informed in August by yours truly.
In Ontario, Canada, where my in-laws live, it is $7600 US fine for organizing a group of more than 25 people and $560 fine for each attendee. Whenever there are fines or jail time, people start spreading the word.

Sometimes people did not know that what they were doing was being enforced or punishable by law, and once they learn this, (after breaking the law), they are willing to accept the consequences. I'm guessing this is what happened in the Amish bishop situation but I don't know. I think there are still many Plain Anabaptist church leaders who don't know all the laws about reporting abuse, and don't bother to study up on it. Some are conscientiously opposed to reporting abuse to civil authorities and wouldn't report it, even if they did have information. For many years the abuse reporting laws were not enforced, so most Plain people never bothered checking into the laws. Now that a couple Anabaptist pastors in PA have been charged in the last year or two, word will begin to spread.

There is a Plain Anabaptist brother who is the main go-to person in PA among the plain people. He does "training" for pastors and organizational leaders on reporting to authorities. If someone comes to him to get advice about an abuse situation, he explains up front that he will need to report it to the authorities. Some at that point decided to go back home without telling him. Others reluctantly say, "Well... We need help so..."