400 Years of African Slavery in America

[Josh]

Out of the 657 songs in this hymnal, how many were written after 1900? And how many were written by non-white or female composers?

Would you enjoy the hymnals even more if they were written by non-white or female composers?

Our hymnals have a very large number of female composers, particularly the new one. I have no idea what the race of composers is. I don't really think I'd care either way.

[Josh]

let me see if i have this right.
as i understand josh, injustices that happened 5-7 generations ago need to be forgiven and forgotten. they are no longer relevant to the present. is this statement correct?

if the same injustice happened today to you, would it still need to be forgiven and forgotten before any justice was obtained? or if it happened to your parents, which is one generation?

when does it become relevant?

Sitting around being angry about events hundreds of years ago is foolish and is also decidedly un-Christian, and leads nowhere except to wars, conflicts, and violence.

For those concerned about slavery, they should perhaps focus on modern day slavery, which is happening in far greater numbers than during America’s heyday of slavery in the 19th century. It seems especially foolish to be litigating the past whilst ignoring the atrocities of the present.

That does not answer the questions that i asked.

I do agree w the first sentence of your 2nd paragraph.

Yes, an injustice that happens to me needs to be something that I forgive. After enough time has passed, it's usually a good idea to start to forget about it. I certainly don't want my children / grandchildren to "inherit" every resentment and piece of bitterness I ever had.

"Young Mr. Joshua Junior the III, I must tell you of the time a policeman wronged me. He levelled an accusation against me of rolling through a stop sign when I came to a complete stop. It is very important that you go and seek justice for this, despite the fact that this policeman is probably deceased by now. Our family wealth declined by $125 for the fine. This is the reason you are so disadvantaged in life compared to your neighbours, or compared to Jeff Bezos Junior the III."

In essence, that is what this industry of racial grievance is busy saying.

Something I see that is difficult to deal with in my parents and in my (now deceased) grandparents was that they seemed to hold on to a lot of bad stories of being hurt in the past. My parents have been hurt in many different churches, and told those stories to us children. They are so hurt, that now, they don't feel comfortable attending any church anywhere. So as they grow older, they are more and more lonely, and have fewer people around. Most people aren't very interested to hear their stories of how they've been wronged in the past.

When I lived next door to my grandmother, she started to get dementia and she descended as well into storing up a litany of past offences from many different people. I think this was bad for her. It came in the way of relationships with family and community.

It's a really good idea to stop blaming other people for you and your family's faults. Some people seem trapped in a prison where everything bad that happens to their family, is somehow external to them, and somebody else's fault. This basically deprives people of their own agency. It turns out that absolutely every grouping of people you can imagine has had something unjust happen to them sometime. No individual alive today is truly "advantaged" over everyone else.

I do not support living in the past. I support living in the present. If someone is continuing to do bad things, then noticing that is not being "unforgiving". So a repeat serial offender may need to be removed from society, or isolated from potential victims, but that is not due to unforgiveness. That is simply acknowledging the reality of the present.

[Josh]

I have both The Martyr's Mirror and Fox's Book of Martyrs, which seem more relevant to this topic than hymnals. I have quite a few books about the Holocaust. I have read extensively about authoritarian regimes in Nazi Germany and in Communist Eastern Europe and Russia My Bible talks about the martyrdom of Stephen, slavery in Egypt, Cain and Abel, captivity in Babylon. These have shaped my faith and my understanding of who I am.

I do not read them because I am bitter, I do not read them because I want to attack Catholics or Germans or Egyptians or Babylonians. When I read them, I am not plotting a Marxist revolution. Nobody accuses me of these things when I read them. Why should it be different for black people in America?

I don't think there's something wrong with reading (valid) history. But the 1619 movement wasn't an attempt to write history; it's a modern-day political movement intended for present-day political goals.

I think it's wrong and a mistake for "black people in America" to remain identified with and obsessed with the impact of slavery 200 years ago, just as it would be a mistake for English and Welsh-descended people like myself to remain identified with and obsessed with the impact of slavery in Roman Britain 2,000 years ago, or for Hutterite people to remain identified with and be obsessed with the impact of slavery in the Ottoman empire in the early 1900s.

The title of this thread is "400 years of African Slavery in America". The title implies that slavery is still ongoing and then demands political solutions, using violence and coercion. I reject this. The people behind this are strongly politicised and have a political agenda and frequently make statements calling for violent political revolutions. I don't think violent political revolutions are good, or are the answer for how we can live a victorious Christian life. Do you?

[Bootstrap]

I have both The Martyr's Mirror and Fox's Book of Martyrs, which seem more relevant to this topic than hymnals. I have quite a few books about the Holocaust. I have read extensively about authoritarian regimes in Nazi Germany and in Communist Eastern Europe and Russia My Bible talks about the martyrdom of Stephen, slavery in Egypt, Cain and Abel, captivity in Babylon. These have shaped my faith and my understanding of who I am.

I do not read them because I am bitter, I do not read them because I want to attack Catholics or Germans or Egyptians or Babylonians. When I read them, I am not plotting a Marxist revolution. Nobody accuses me of these things when I read them. Why should it be different for black people in America?

I don't think there's something wrong with reading (valid) history. But the 1619 movement wasn't an attempt to write history; it's a modern-day political movement intended for present-day political goals.

So you also oppose the 1776 Project? I think both address history, including history curricula, there are political activists associated with both. FWIW, if I were teaching history in high school, I would want to present multiple points of view and encourage students to evaluate what is good and bad and true and unlikely by comparing them and looking at the evidence given.

A high-school history class that presents only one point of view isn't much of a history class. And it wouldn't help people learn how to sort through various points of view and the evidence given for them.

.... the impact of slavery 200 years ago

200 years ago? 156 is not 200, even if you think slavery ended after the Civil War. And it's well documented that it continued, on a smaller scale, in some places. But I think they are mostly concerned about the impacts of slavery they believe we see today.

The title of this thread is "400 years of African Slavery in America". The title implies that slavery is still ongoing and then demands political solutions, using violence and coercion. I reject this. The people behind this are strongly politicised and have a political agenda and frequently make statements calling for violent political revolutions. I don't think violent political revolutions are good, or are the answer for how we can live a victorious Christian life. Do you?

The 1619 Project does not call for anything like violent revolution. As Christians, I think we should reject all calls to violence and to political revolutions, including both the right and the left But I don't think that means we can't read history books. And you yourself defend views that have been promoted by people associated with political violence. I think you should be more consistent.

[Josh]

The political left indeed does call for violent revolution. That’s what their track record is, and that’s what they did last year. Lawlessness, riots, burning down buildings, destroying businesses. I evaluate a project by who associates with it.

I disagree with the “1776 Project” too. I disagree with the concept of American exceptionalism. There is nothing good or sacred about America, and the sooner Christians abandon this idea, the better.

Of course, accepting that means giving up a lot of dearly held myths. If America is not some exceptional place that is better than other places - then many treasured left wing and right wing political beliefs must needs vanish.

[Josh]

And you yourself defend views that have been promoted by people associated with political violence. I think you should be more consistent.

I think I need to call this out. What political movements like 1619 am I affiliated with or promoting?

I happen to think workers should be paid fairly and not exploited. That doesn’t mean I defend Karl Marx’s views. I think our views should be sourced from the scripture, not from worldly philosophers.

[Only an Anz]

let me see if i have this right.
as i understand josh, injustices that happened 5-7 generations ago need to be forgiven and forgotten. they are no longer relevant to the present. is this statement correct?

if the same injustice happened today to you, would it still need to be forgiven and forgotten before any justice was obtained? or if it happened to your parents, which is one generation?

when does it become relevant?

Sitting around being angry about events hundreds of years ago is foolish and is also decidedly un-Christian, and leads nowhere except to wars, conflicts, and violence.

For those concerned about slavery, they should perhaps focus on modern day slavery, which is happening in far greater numbers than during America’s heyday of slavery in the 19th century. It seems especially foolish to be litigating the past whilst ignoring the atrocities of the present.

Again, not sure why this has to be an either/or proposition. We can be concerned about humans enslaving other humans now AND in the past.

[Josh]

let me see if i have this right.
as i understand josh, injustices that happened 5-7 generations ago need to be forgiven and forgotten. they are no longer relevant to the present. is this statement correct?

if the same injustice happened today to you, would it still need to be forgiven and forgotten before any justice was obtained? or if it happened to your parents, which is one generation?

when does it become relevant?

Sitting around being angry about events hundreds of years ago is foolish and is also decidedly un-Christian, and leads nowhere except to wars, conflicts, and violence.

For those concerned about slavery, they should perhaps focus on modern day slavery, which is happening in far greater numbers than during America’s heyday of slavery in the 19th century. It seems especially foolish to be litigating the past whilst ignoring the atrocities of the present.

Again, not sure why this has to be an either/or proposition. We can be concerned about humans enslaving other humans now AND in the past.

Okay, so what in the past is important? Do we want to talk about Ottoman Empire slavery, which is the most recent, legal widespread chattel slavery?

[Only an Anz]

Sitting around being angry about events hundreds of years ago is foolish and is also decidedly un-Christian, and leads nowhere except to wars, conflicts, and violence.

For those concerned about slavery, they should perhaps focus on modern day slavery, which is happening in far greater numbers than during America’s heyday of slavery in the 19th century. It seems especially foolish to be litigating the past whilst ignoring the atrocities of the present.

Again, not sure why this has to be an either/or proposition. We can be concerned about humans enslaving other humans now AND in the past.

Okay, so what in the past is important? Do we want to talk about Ottoman Empire slavery, which is the most recent, legal widespread chattel slavery?

You would like to make this a dichotomous issue; I would not.

[Josh]

Again, not sure why this has to be an either/or proposition. We can be concerned about humans enslaving other humans now AND in the past.

Okay, so what in the past is important? Do we want to talk about Ottoman Empire slavery, which is the most recent, legal widespread chattel slavery?

You would like to make this a dichotomous issue; I would not.

Why don’t you want to acknowledge Ottoman slavery? It’s far more relevant to us (lots of Anabaptists ended up slaved), and we also have the modern day descendant of that regime steadfastly refusing to acknowledge their history of slavery and genocide.

Or do you want to talk about slavery in the distant past? Slavery was a big problem for my (distant) ancestors in Roman Britain.

So what makes American 19th century slavery somehow worthy of being front and centre and dominating the discourse?