Amish getting fined?

[Judas Maccabeus]

I haven’t read the article, but I would ask you a few simple questions. Did he account for genetics? Did he account for under reporting? Did he use two sets of Amish, vaccinated/unvaccinated to evaluate the data? How did he gather his data?

I would like to FIND this article. Opening suspicion is that while in the general culture, a diagnosis of autism can bring all sorts of “services “ who is running around evaluating the Old Order Amish? One of my wife’s great nephews is “autistic.” My suspicion is he simply needs better parenting. They NEVER say “no”and the results are predictable.

Andrew Wakefield's work has been found fallacious. And the Lancet fully retracted it.

I know. He was “stuck off” for fraudulent research . If such an article has been published, I would LOVE to read it. My suspicion is that no such article exists, because I cannot conceive of anyone who would publish an article from a known fraud.

[JohnH]

I think the Amish schools are being fined for consistently operating schools that don't meet health standards, not for vaccines hesitancy. They are free pursue that and homeschool. However, I predict if this goes to the supreme court, the Amish will win.

Any reasonable person is going to conclude they're being fined for vaccine hesitancy.

And no, it is not necessarily the case they are free to homeschool. New York State is by far the most draconian when it comes to homeschooling, and they could very will try to impose vaccine requirements on that next.

[JohnH]

I know. He was “stuck off” for fraudulent research . If such an article has been published, I would LOVE to read it. My suspicion is that no such article exists, because I cannot conceive of anyone who would publish an article from a known fraud.

Let's stick to the well-published facts, then. Amish have a far lower incidence of autism (which you handwaved away by claiming that the official, well-researched rate of autism in the general population is somehow not reliable), and they also have a far lower rate of vaccination.

Are you disputing these facts?

[barnhart]

I think the Amish schools are being fined for consistently operating schools that don't meet health standards, not for vaccines hesitancy. They are free pursue that and homeschool. However, I predict if this goes to the supreme court, the Amish will win.

Any reasonable person is going to conclude they're being fined for vaccine hesitancy.

And no, it is not necessarily the case they are free to homeschool. New York State is by far the most draconian when it comes to homeschooling, and they could very will try to impose vaccine requirements on that next.

John, I have you blocked for good reasons, to see what you write I have to click on your post to open it so I often don't see. So I engage you with a great deal of reluctance because of your behavior in the past.

What evidence do you have to offer that NYS is by far the most draconian. I know people who have homeschooled in PA and NYS and my estimation is they are similar.

Our church school operates under the authority of NYS schools and my experience has been if you demonstrate a willingness to work with them and not rebell against them, you will be rewarded with broad freedom.

If you have no good evidence for your assertions, I will very likely return to my previous policy of blocking you.

[JohnH]

John, I have you blocked for good reasons, to see what you write I have to click on your post to open it so I often don't see. So I engage you with a great deal of reluctance because of your behavior in the past.

If you don't want to read or respond to my posts, you don't have, but you don't need to make a big announcement about how you go out of your way to ignore me.

What evidence do you have to offer that NYS is by far the most draconian. I know people who have homeschooled in PA and NYS and my estimation is they are similar.

Based on HSLDA's ranking of the states and personal conversations with Brian Ray. (They have four states, including NYS, they categorised as "Restrictive", but New York State generates by far the most need for lawsuits and otherwise trying to stop families from homeschooling relative to the size of their membership.)

Our church school operates under the authority of NYS schools and my experience has been if you demonstrate a willingness to work with them and not rebell against them, you will be rewarded with broad freedom.

Your church school is, presumably, not the same thing as homeschooling.

If you have no good evidence for your assertions, I will very likely return to my previous policy of blocking you.

If you don't want to read my posts or respond to them, then don't. You don't need to make announcements or threats.

[Soloist]

1800 Amish from a door-to-door survey with two survey tools, neither designed for Amish and no evidence that a translator was provided relying on self reporting from parents.
Should a better study be performed? Sure but this doesn’t really mean much.

[JohnH]

1800 Amish from a door-to-door survey with two survey tools, neither designed for Amish and no evidence that a translator was provided relying on self reporting from parents.

Why is a translator needed? Amish people who are old enough to have children speak English, as a general rule.

The rate of incidence of autism is generally established using surveying techniques. For that matter, so is the vaccination rate.

[Judas Maccabeus]

u

I know. He was “stuck off” for fraudulent research . If such an article has been published, I would LOVE to read it. My suspicion is that no such article exists, because I cannot conceive of anyone who would publish an article from a known fraud.

Let's stick to the well-published facts, then. Amish have a far lower incidence of autism (which you handwaved away by claiming that the official, well-researched rate of autism in the general population is somehow not reliable), and they also have a far lower rate of vaccination.

Are you disputing these facts?

It is not a fact, and it is not well published . The increase in autism is almost entirely due to shifting diagnostic criteria, and the lower rate can surely be attributed to the FACT That autism is largely a subjective diagnosis and there is no objective study that follows children chosen at random from Amish communities. If you know of such a study that consistently applies criteria rather then relying on self reporting, please cite it. “Everyone knows “ simply does not count

[Judas Maccabeus]

1800 Amish from a door-to-door survey with two survey tools, neither designed for Amish and no evidence that a translator was provided relying on self reporting from parents.

Why is a translator needed? Amish people who are old enough to have children speak English, as a general rule.

The rate of incidence of autism is generally established using surveying techniques. For that matter, so is the vaccination rate.

Vaccination rate is determined by data from Immuninet, not self reporting. Maybe you did not know that because you didn’t know that it exists.

Surveying techniques are simply not objective, full stop.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I will likely be bunny trailed for this. This is from the person who created the criteria:

Robert F. Kennedy Jr., secretary of health and human services, is correct that reported autism rates have exploded in the last 30 years — they’ve increased roughly 60-fold — but he is dead wrong about the causes. I should know, because I am partly responsible for the explosion in rates.

The rapid rise in autism cases is not because of vaccines or environmental toxins, but rather is the result of changes in the way that autism is defined and assessed — changes that I helped put into place.

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, I was the chair of the task force charged with creating the fourth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or the D.S.M.-IV. Sometimes called the “bible of psychiatry,” the D.S.M. influences medical practice, insurance coverage, education and treatment selection.

In the third edition of the D.S.M., published in 1980, autism was tightly defined and considered extremely rare. Criteria for the diagnosis required a very early onset (before age 3) of severe cognitive, interpersonal, emotional and behavioral problems.

Dr. Allen Frances, the lead author of the latest DSM 4

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/23/opin ... eased.html