Sermon on Eastern Orthodoxy

[JohnH]

I think folks will be surprised by the amount of standing they are gonna experience!

Our back and knees will be a lot better then.

There is some kneeling in EO.
We were advised to attend a Russian EO church for our first visit to EO. Cleveland OH area.

The men stand on one side of Church, the women on the other side, There were chairs along the wall for those needing to sit. There was a nice sign out at entrance requesting women to cover their heads in the church and to abstain from wearing pants do it was nice to see women in dresses with heads covered. It was ethnic yet very nice people greeted us.

It was over 2 hours of standing.

We have visited many other EOs & service itself goes the same way but not all divide men from women, not all cover their heads- Russian was closest to the “old” way yet Russia didn’t embrace Orthodoxy until 1054 A.D I think?

Russia was Catholic before 1054. The baptism of the Kievsn Rus was in the 900s; Moscow didn’t exist then and the center of the Russian world was what is now present day Kiev.

[Neto]

What pray tell is wrong with the book of Tobit? I love that book. His ways are not our ways I realize.

Amish adapt a wedding ritual from Tobit. An Amish man who publishes “The Vendor” had 2 articles separate issues encouraging the apocrypha and they were excellent articles. I believe he is a bishop (or minister)

I have been to many Amish funerals, but only one wedding, one of my wife's cousins invited us to their daughter's wedding. My wife's aunt (Old Order Amish) was very disgusted that one of the preachers spent so terrible much time with Tobit. (I do not understand enough German to be able to fool it very much - I just knew that he was talking about Tobit.) Even she, as a quite conservative Old Order woman in her upper 80's or early 90's, said that there's a lot of superstition and witchcraft mixed into it. Their district is also one of the most conservative in this area. The part of the address to the couple that I understood was mostly about being good neighbors, stuff like that. I talked with the bride's father a good bit recently, while arranging to get a laptop for him (for his duties as the chairman of their financial aid committee). In the process of discussing how much I should lock down we talked a fair bit about personal convictions and the church guidelines. He is regarded as one of the more conservative men in the district. But we didn't talk about Tobit, or the other so-called "missing books of the Bible". (There was actually a book by that title in our MB church library during my childhood. But I never checked it out. I didn't read through the Apocrypha until in Bible Institute, as a part of Old Testament History class. I have not read through all of it again since then, mostly just Sirach, because Menno often quotes from it. He does also refer to Tobit, and quotes at least once from the book by his name. But he, Menno, also taught that parents must beware of loosing their own salvation if their children wander from the truth. Although I sometimes defend him against what I regard as misrepresentations of his teachings, I do not think he was right on everything he wrote and taught.)

[JohnH]

Pretty much all Christians other than Reformed/Calvinist considered Tobit part of the Bible. Removing these books of the Bible for other Christian groups happened in the late 1800s.

I do not support removing books from the Bible.

[Ernie]

Pretty much all Christians other than Reformed/Calvinist considered Tobit part of the Bible. Removing these books of the Bible for other Christian groups happened in the late 1800s.

I do not support removing books from the Bible.

So you go for the Ethiopian Bible?

https://www.opendoor-bookstore.com/book/9798367003369

[Valerie]

What pray tell is wrong with the book of Tobit? I love that book. His ways are not our ways I realize.

Amish adapt a wedding ritual from Tobit. An Amish man who publishes “The Vendor” had 2 articles separate issues encouraging the apocrypha and they were excellent articles. I believe he is a bishop (or minister)

I have been to many Amish funerals, but only one wedding, one of my wife's cousins invited us to their daughter's wedding. My wife's aunt (Old Order Amish) was very disgusted that one of the preachers spent so terrible much time with Tobit. (I do not understand enough German to be able to fool it very much - I just knew that he was talking about Tobit.) Even she, as a quite conservative Old Order woman in her upper 80's or early 90's, said that there's a lot of superstition and witchcraft mixed into it. Their district is also one of the most conservative in this area. The part of the address to the couple that I understood was mostly about being good neighbors, stuff like that. I talked with the bride's father a good bit recently, while arranging to get a laptop for him (for his duties as the chairman of their financial aid committee). In the process of discussing how much I should lock down we talked a fair bit about personal convictions and the church guidelines. He is regarded as one of the more conservative men in the district. But we didn't talk about Tobit, or the other so-called "missing books of the Bible". (There was actually a book by that title in our MB church library during my childhood. But I never checked it out. I didn't read through the Apocrypha until in Bible Institute, as a part of Old Testament History class. I have not read through all of it again since then, mostly just Sirach, because Menno often quotes from it. He does also refer to Tobit, and quotes at least once from the book by his name. But he, Menno, also taught that parents must beware of loosing their own salvation if their children wander from the truth. Although I sometimes defend him against what I regard as misrepresentations of his teachings, I do not think he was right on everything he wrote and taught.)

I’ve read Tobit 3x & find no superstition or witchcraft in it, but- I think it’s odd that Amish adapt a wedding ritual from it, if line to know how that started. To the best of my knowledge the Churches that have Tobit in their Bibles, do not adapt that ritual for wedding couples.

[ohio jones]

I’ve read Tobit 3x & find no superstition or witchcraft in it, but- I think it’s odd that Amish adapt a wedding ritual from it, if line to know how that started. To the best of my knowledge the Churches that have Tobit in their Bibles, do not adapt that ritual for wedding couples.

Are the Amish not a Church?

As for superstition, some of the things in chapter 6 and the beginning of chapter 8 are a little fishy.

[JohnH]

Pretty much all Christians other than Reformed/Calvinist considered Tobit part of the Bible. Removing these books of the Bible for other Christian groups happened in the late 1800s.

I do not support removing books from the Bible.

So you go for the Ethiopian Bible?

https://www.opendoor-bookstore.com/book/9798367003369

I don’t know much about it other than that I do feel the Book of Enoch is scripture and agrees with the rest of the scriptures.

This statement from the website is false:

“Why does the Ethiopian Bible have 81 books yet the Catholic and King James versions each have 72 and 66?”

The KJV had all the apocryphal books. Modern printings remove some of the books, and are not faithful to the original KJV.

[Valerie]

I’ve read Tobit 3x & find no superstition or witchcraft in it, but- I think it’s odd that Amish adapt a wedding ritual from it, if line to know how that started. To the best of my knowledge the Churches that have Tobit in their Bibles, do not adapt that ritual for wedding couples.

Are the Amish not a Church?

As for superstition, some of the things in chapter 6 and the beginning of chapter 8 are a little fishy.

Of course they are! I should have said “all other churches”.

There are so many unusual miracles in the Bible I don’t question the ones as Tobit. Gods ways are not ours and He performed unusual miracles elsewhere. I’m kinda used to just accepting those.

[Ernie]

Pretty much all Christians other than Reformed/Calvinist considered Tobit part of the Bible. Removing these books of the Bible for other Christian groups happened in the late 1800s.

I do not support removing books from the Bible.

So you go for the Ethiopian Bible?

https://www.opendoor-bookstore.com/book/9798367003369

I don’t know much about it other than that I do feel the Book of Enoch is scripture and agrees with the rest of the scriptures.

“Why does the Ethiopian Bible have 81 books yet the Catholic and King James versions each have 72 and 66?”

It seems to me that anyone opposed removing books should go with at least the 81.

[Ernie]

Here is another attempt... I think #12 could be said better... And I think other points could be improved as well.

In order for traditional Anabaptists to convert to Orthodoxy, they must…

1. Give up their belief that the church should be a voluntary community of regenerate believers, be ok with the concept of having both wheat and tares in the church, and believe that tares in the church do not diminish or negate the authenticity of the church. This includes a tolerance for such things as lying, swearing, abortion, drunkenness, smoking, vaping, divorce and remarriage, and immodest attire by members of the church.
(Historically, Anabaptists have believed that there might be both wheat and tares in the church, but if there are tares in the church, it can really weaken the church or even cause its candlestick to be removed. Historically, Anabaptists have believed that a church can only avoid culpability if the tares (sin) were hidden and if the tares are removed once it comes to light.)
2. Be ok with a church that allows members to kill and harm others, and be able to tolerate church leaders who support militarism, believe in Holy War, and leaders who support heads of state who engage in mass violence.
3. Give up their belief that only God honoring, charactered men are permitted to hold leadership positions in the church and rather be able to tolerate ungodly men holding high positions in the church.
4. Accept the authority of Sacred Tradition, including the decisions of the seven Ecumenical Councils (e.g., Nicaea, Constantinople) and the role of the Church Fathers in interpreting Scripture.
5. Accept institutionalized Christianity as the true church of God and recognize the authority of the Orthodox Church and its sacred hierarchy. This includes recognizing the Ecumenical Patriarch and other bishops, in communion with one another, and upholding the doctrine of apostolic succession, which traces the unbroken transmission of spiritual authority from the apostles to the present-day leaders.
6. Be ok with infant baptism
7. Be ok with the Real Presence view of communion
8. Give up many of their own rituals and ordinances and accept Orthodoxy’s rituals, ordinances, and seven Holy Sacraments (some of which are not commanded in scripture)
9. Embrace liturgical worship, the veneration of holy icons, relics, and the use of ritual elements such as incense and vestments.
10. Accept the veneration of Mary and the saints, including praying to them for intercession, and becoming convinced in one’s mind that there is a significant difference between veneration and the worship of saints in God’s eyes.
11. Believe that Christianity in the first century of existence was primitive and therefore immature and ascribe to a “theory of development” which believes that the many things the Orthodox Church has added to its theology and practice over the centuries is an overall general improvement and in harmony with the will of God. (This is in contrast to the historical Anabaptist view that most of these additions, teachings, and practices, are unorthodox and unbiblical.)
12. Be ok with a huge collection of rituals, relics, and church traditions that can keep a priest from performing his shepherding duties at certain times of the year, with the realization that this “load” will only increase in the coming centuries and millennia if the Lord tarries. There is no way to scale down or start over with a clean slate, because to do so would go against the very premise for the church’s existence.

To join a Catholic church, one needs to believe in all of the above, with annulment instead of divorce, different hierarchy for #4, and transubstantiation for #6.
In addition, converts need to embrace papal primacy and infallibility, immaculate conception, original sin, celibacy and no beards for priests, statues in addition to icons, pilgrimages to shrines, use of the rosary, etc.

Numbers 1-3 would generally apply to many Protestant churches and quite a few Anabaptist churches as well.