Alex Jones...

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Bootstrap

Re: Alex Jones...

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 1:53 pm I would support anyone’s right to exercise free speech and engage in political speech, even if they were alleging I was part of some government conspiracy. I would also engage in my own speech and say what I think happened.
And that would stop the death threats and rape threats? Alex Jones followers would then leave you alone? I doubt it. These parents were not politicians or public figures. They simply happened to be the parents of children who were gunned down at school.

Alex Jones was not the innocent victim here, the parents were.

I agree with the need to protect political speech. This is newer than you might think - before New York Times Co. v. Sullivan (1964), politicians regularly sued the media for libel, and it was hard to defend against these suits. But that's not what the Alex Jones lawsuits are about.

https://knightcolumbia.org/blog/the-end ... v-sullivan
Before 1964, a person who sued for libel didn’t have to prove the statement in question was false; rather, falsity was presumed. The plaintiff didn’t have to show actual injury to their reputation, only that the statement had the potential to harm their reputation. Libel was judged under the rule of strict liability, meaning that a publisher was responsible for its statements regardless of the publisher’s intent or state of mind at the time of publishing. The only ways a publisher could defend itself were by proving that the statement fell into one of a few narrow categories of statements that were “privileged,” legally justified or excused, or more commonly, by proving the truth of the statement “in all its particulars.” (Sullivan, 376 U.S. at 267). Truth was a complete defense to libel, but as a practical matter, proving the truth of a statement “in all its particulars” was difficult even if the statement was true. Prior to 1964, the Supreme Court had said repeatedly that defamation law did not implicate the First Amendment. Defamatory speech had no redeeming social value, the Court said, and its regulation could be left wholly to the states.

Under these rules, publishing criticism—even truthful criticism—of public officials was a dangerous undertaking for a newspaper. Public officials routinely saddled their critics in the press with libel claims (claims that would today be considered meritless), often recovering considerable damage awards. Libel lawsuits against newspapers were a regular feature of American politics prior to the 1960s. Political officials and other powerful figures frequently harassed and intimidated their critics in the press through retaliatory libel suits.
But for private individuals the standards are different. See Curtis Publishing v Butts (1967) and Gertz vs. Robert Welch, Inc (1974).
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Alex Jones...

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 11:54 amI think political speech should be protected, and that includes conspiracy theories that you disagree with.
He wasn’t engaged in political speech. He wasn’t advocating for any particular candidate or political position. He was lying. Knowingly and maliciously for profit. What does your Bible say about lying?

The truth is ALWAYS a defense against libel and defamation. Alex Jones admitted that he was knowingly lying.
Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 11:54 am On this forum accusations are frequently made that Amish and Mennonites are child molesters. Should I go and sue everyone doing this for defamation?
If someone with a large national audience of millions knowingly and repeatedly said this about YOU specifically. And as a result, you lost your job and were forced to go into hiding and leave the state because you and your family were getting harassed, receiving death threats, being doxed online, being followed. If your car and home was being shot at and so forth. And they were deliberately doing it to drum up ratings and get rich at you and your family’s expense. And they continued to do so for years despite repeated requests to cease and desist. Then yes, you would have good cause to sue them for defamation and damages.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: Alex Jones...

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 3:59 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 1:54 pm If those things are true (which I doubt), those sound like criminal acts. Why wasn’t he charged for them?
Because it was his followers, incited by his claims, not Jones himself.
Then they should be held responsible for what they did.

“Incitement” is not a reasonable excuse. I can listen to people express a variety of political opinions, but I don’t go and commit acts of violence.
[/quote]
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Bootstrap

Re: Alex Jones...

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 5:49 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 3:59 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 1:54 pm If those things are true (which I doubt), those sound like criminal acts. Why wasn’t he charged for them?
Because it was his followers, incited by his claims, not Jones himself.
Then they should be held responsible for what they did.

“Incitement” is not a reasonable excuse. I can listen to people express a variety of political opinions, but I don’t go and commit acts of violence.
Yes, his followers are also responsible for their actions.

But so is Alex Jones. Spreading vicious lies about people to get your audience worked up and make lots of money is still a problem. People like Alex Jones can get rich and famous by making the lives of everyday citizens miserable. Alex Jones is not an innocent victim here. That's not what the First Amendment was designed to protect.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/418/323/
But there is no constitutional value in false statements of fact. Neither the intentional lie nor the careless error materially advances society's interest in "uninhibited, robust, and wide-open" debate on public issues. New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. at 376 U. S. 270. They belong to that category of utterances which "are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality."
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Ernie

Re: Alex Jones...

Post by Ernie »

Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 1:53 pmSaying outlandish things is not being an “abuser”, and in this specific case it is clearly political speech.
There is such a thing as emotional/verbal abuse, and yes, Alex is guilty of this. So yes, he is an abuser and he encouraged others to do the same.

If Alex did this to you after you lost a child to a mass shooting, I don't think it would matter to you whether it was political or not. I think you would identify it as emotional/verbal abuse.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Alex Jones...

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 1:53 pmSaying outlandish things is not being an “abuser”, and in this specific case it is clearly political speech.
Alex Jones claimed that the Sandy Hook parents were “crisis actors” who faked their children’s own deaths
Alex Jones claimed that no one was actually killed at Sandy Hook elementary. That it was a hoax and that the parents were hiding their children.
Alex Jones claimed that the parents were pretending to grieve for the cameras and were faking all of it.

What is political about any of that? What political position or candidate is he trying to promote with such statements? Where do such statements fall on the liberal to conservative political spectrum?
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: Alex Jones...

Post by Josh »

Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 7:51 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 1:53 pmSaying outlandish things is not being an “abuser”, and in this specific case it is clearly political speech.
There is such a thing as emotional/verbal abuse, and yes, Alex is guilty of this. So yes, he is an abuser and he encouraged others to do the same.

If Alex did this to you after you lost a child to a mass shooting, I don't think it would matter to you whether it was political or not. I think you would identify it as emotional/verbal abuse.
No, I wouldn’t. I would identify it as a crank who believes in conspiracy theories.

I would try to approach him in a loving, Christian manner, and try to understand his point of view.
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Ernie

Re: Alex Jones...

Post by Ernie »

Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 9:14 pm
Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 7:51 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 1:53 pmSaying outlandish things is not being an “abuser”, and in this specific case it is clearly political speech.
There is such a thing as emotional/verbal abuse, and yes, Alex is guilty of this. So yes, he is an abuser and he encouraged others to do the same.

If Alex did this to you after you lost a child to a mass shooting, I don't think it would matter to you whether it was political or not. I think you would identify it as emotional/verbal abuse.
No, I wouldn’t. I would identify it as a crank who believes in conspiracy theories.

I would try to approach him in a loving, Christian manner, and try to understand his point of view.
Interesting, as I have not yet seen that approach used by you here on Mennonet.
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Josh

Re: Alex Jones...

Post by Josh »

Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 9:27 pm Interesting, as I have not yet seen that approach used by you here on Mennonet.
MN is a place where certain people come for debate but aren’t interested in changing their minds. We also have several people here who blatantly promote false doctrine. I believe such people needed handled in a particular manner, per the scriptures’ warnings to us about false teachers.

Now, someone who has erratic or fringe views.. I have engaged with a few such people here and been quite generous with them. One person in particular I engaged with multiple times on the phone, despite him choosing to make a public “denouncement” of me on his website.
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ohio jones

Re: Alex Jones...

Post by ohio jones »

Ken wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 5:20 pm He wasn’t engaged in political speech.
No, but certain posters in this thread were, and those posts have been moved to PBT.
Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 9:29 pm Lets keep Trump, Biden and anyone else in Politics!!! These guys don't have to be brought up in every thread.
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