Why did you come?

[NedFlanders]

This can be so incredibly hard and sad since we can truly be naive and sincere but connection still lacks…. The only effective option I believe we have is to not think about our own lack of closer fellowship like others in the church have but to die to self and seek to serve. Sometimes I’m reminded of lack of connection despite such efforts but God is good in helping to also remind that we are joined in Him and that needs to be more of my resolve over my feelings of connection or lack of.

I admire your heart and your tenacity.

And unless you have a family or two who takes the time to talk and really engage with you - it can be that no matter how much you “obey” you haven’t experienced the history and heart of the congregations/fellowships choices and even many choices they agreed upon together. There can be things they don’t understand how to explain to you and at the same time are a struggle for us to understand. This difficulty in relating in thought patterns might lend more to that disconnect of unity or Glassenheit no matter how much we obey.

Can you give some examples?

If a new comer comes to a church that says no internet they may get rid of their internet, change to things like telephone banking, change to flip phones. But then only to find that the congregation defines “no internet,” as no open web browser. So the congregation still actually use smart phones with apps, and possibly even filtered Internet. But the language is very foreign to the new comer who understood anything that requires an Internet connection to be Internet. The new comer is obeying by getting rid of all things Internet and to them the congregation is not obedient to their own rules. The seeker was never explained the intent of the standard or how it was defined. Maybe both sides were assuming but the sensitivity and effort of the seeker in forsaking all can cause a bit of turmoil.

Another one could be a woman painstakingly finds a dress pattern and sews a cape dress of which she never learnt how to sew well. The other woman in the church are busy with small children as well and no one offers help. It takes her much time and maybe a few tries. She is grateful she can wear similar to the other woman. She makes more dresses and all seems well and then finally after a number of dresses and time she is told her length is too long…. She feels deflated after all that effort.

Once a woman came by and took most of my wife’s dresses - altered them and then brought them back - the woman never told my wife what was wrong or how she altered them - nor could my wife tell how they were altered. It may have been a kind gesture but with no communication my wife still doesn’t know what was wrong…

A seeker family wants to be hospitable in having families from the congregation over. They invite a family or two over for a Saturday evening. All goes well and as the visiting family is leaving the wife of Mennonite raised family says, “Well, this was sure different visiting on a Saturday evening!” Not visiting on Saturday evening may be a regular practice to get to bed early in preparation for Sunday morning and not a specific rule - but it can be in written rule of practice that we seekers don’t know about. Depending on the wife - some woman stress much over having visitors and their upbringing didn’t have this as a comfortable or normal practice any day of the week. Her courage to overcome gets a big deflation after that comment because it was very important to her to take this step.

These can look like trivial things but the way they are handled can be a constant reminder that the seeker is “an outsider,” and lack acceptance.

Social media can be a strange one. Seekers are getting rid of it while Mennonite raised members are making excuse to stay connected with family going more liberal. It can be a shock when members open up about apps that we didn’t think anyone had. Or after we are told apps are okay - we get back some very safe necessary ones and then are later told there is a list of acceptable apps but have never been shown it after years as members. But maybe since members are getting apps not on the list to connect with family it is something they don’t want to talk about to avoid stirring conflict? Again the seeker is making every effort to obey but hasn’t been giving the information to do so or to understand the intent.

I don’t think it is fair to say all seekers are coming at the church rules or standards legalistically as it may seem or sound but rather they are serious and intentional. However they are full of mistakes and may even get challenged about our motivation because we can’t always explain our intent outside a sincere desire to do as we understand we should. The seeker has got the point of coming to a Plain church by questioning everything- that is except a plain reading of scripture- they can carry this mindset into the standards and just take it as they understand it and not really consider properly to ask for more clarity.

[NedFlanders]

Recently I said something about a desire for social media is a sign that maybe our local brother relationships are poor and they need to be worked on. I was surprised by the agreement sensed. I think seekers would do well to not assume that everyone’s relationships are so connected. And if any of us feel lonely then pick up the phone and call a brother or sister in the church or go visit someone. Don’t wait for people to come to you. You’ll be amazed at what starts to happen.

[Soloist]

Ned’s comments are 100% spot on. Echoes my experience at our west coast church.

[Ernie]

If a new comer comes to a church that says no internet they may get rid of their internet, change to things like telephone banking, change to flip phones. But then only to find that the congregation defines “no internet,” as no open web browser. So the congregation still actually use smart phones with apps, and possibly even filtered Internet. But the language is very foreign to the new comer who understood anything that requires an Internet connection to be Internet. The new comer is obeying by getting rid of all things Internet and to them the congregation is not obedient to their own rules. The seeker was never explained the intent of the standard or how it was defined. Maybe both sides were assuming but the sensitivity and effort of the seeker in forsaking all can cause a bit of turmoil.

Another one could be a woman painstakingly finds a dress pattern and sews a cape dress of which she never learnt how to sew well. The other woman in the church are busy with small children as well and no one offers help. It takes her much time and maybe a few tries. She is grateful she can wear similar to the other woman. She makes more dresses and all seems well and then finally after a number of dresses and time she is told her length is too long…. She feels deflated after all that effort.

Once a woman came by and took most of my wife’s dresses - altered them and then brought them back - the woman never told my wife what was wrong or how she altered them - nor could my wife tell how they were altered. It may have been a kind gesture but with no communication my wife still doesn’t know what was wrong…

A seeker family wants to be hospitable in having families from the congregation over. They invite a family or two over for a Saturday evening. All goes well and as the visiting family is leaving the wife of Mennonite raised family says, “Well, this was sure different visiting on a Saturday evening!” Not visiting on Saturday evening may be a regular practice to get to bed early in preparation for Sunday morning and not a specific rule - but it can be in written rule of practice that we seekers don’t know about. Depending on the wife - some woman stress much over having visitors and their upbringing didn’t have this as a comfortable or normal practice any day of the week. Her courage to overcome gets a big deflation after that comment because it was very important to her to take this step.

Social media can be a strange one. Seekers are getting rid of it while Mennonite raised members are making excuse to stay connected with family going more liberal. It can be a shock when members open up about apps that we didn’t think anyone had. Or after we are told apps are okay - we get back some very safe necessary ones and then are later told there is a list of acceptable apps but have never been shown it after years as members. But maybe since members are getting apps not on the list to connect with family it is something they don’t want to talk about to avoid stirring conflict? Again the seeker is making every effort to obey but hasn’t been giving the information to do so or to understand the intent.

I don’t think it is fair to say all seekers are coming at the church rules or standards legalistically as it may seem or sound but rather they are serious and intentional. However they are full of mistakes and may even get challenged about our motivation because we can’t always explain our intent outside a sincere desire to do as we understand we should. The seeker has got the point of coming to a Plain church by questioning everything- that is except a plain reading of scripture- they can carry this mindset into the standards and just take it as they understand it and not really consider properly to ask for more clarity.

These can look like trivial things but the way they are handled can be a constant reminder that the seeker is “an outsider,” and lack acceptance.

I am so sorry about all this, Ned. No, these things are not trivial!
I've been trying to stress that newcomers need an interpreter to walk beside them. I've been trying to highlight similar issues for years, but I've only been able to reach a very small percentage of the Plain people. God bless you for trying to be a good sport in spite of it all.

[Josh]

The experience for a newcomer is often like hazing - they are expected to figure out things on their own and will not get a straight answer if they ask.

In my experience Holdemans are less like this. I have a theory that Apostoloc Christians and German Baptists are less like this, too.

[Soloist]

The experience for a newcomer is often like hazing - they are expected to figure out things on their own and will not get a straight answer if they ask.

In my experience Holdemans are less like this. I have a theory that Apostoloc Christians and German Baptists are less like this, too.

I still remember reading Larry’s experience with GB so I’m not so sure. As for the Apostolic… nothing quite like visiting once and having them call your ministry to ask about you before you join.

[steve-in-kville]

I'd like to hear your personal experiences.

If you are from non-anabaptist background, what is it that drew you to the anabaptist?

If you came but never joined, what held you back?

If you joined but later left, what was the main reason why?

If you are looking on with no interest in joining, what is it that intrigues you?

It's complicated. I'm an ex-transplant. I was part of a mid-stream COB and joined the Dunkard Brethren around age 17. Met my wife, raised a family, etc. Short answer is I was looking for more in my own spiritual life plus I had some influence from friends and coworkers that were part of the conservative Anabaptist community.

We left that setting and are back at the same (former) COB church. We ducked out some years back after spending 25 years in those conservative circles. I suppose one could say we were pushed out... had several bad experiences in those settings.

That's the short version.

ETA: Before I get flamed, I will repeat a statement I have said many times before: If you are born and raised in that environment, it can be the most wonderful support system. I just didn't have that privilege.

[Josh]

The experience for a newcomer is often like hazing - they are expected to figure out things on their own and will not get a straight answer if they ask.

In my experience Holdemans are less like this. I have a theory that Apostoloc Christians and German Baptists are less like this, too.

I still remember reading Larry’s experience with GB so I’m not so sure. As for the Apostolic… nothing quite like visiting once and having them call your ministry to ask about you before you join.

I’m simply going off that they seem to retain a lot more seekers.

Generally speaking all 3 groups seem less enthusiastic about sourcing their seekers from other plain groups (vs most Mennonite and Amish-Mennonite Beachy etc groups that seem to vastly prefer such sort of people over seekers from the world).

[NedFlanders]

I think it is important that we recognize that we as seekers can be very much doing the same things in ways. So I’d like to encourage that when we would like patience it is a good reminder to extend patience. When we feel like communication is lacking it might mean we should try to communicate better ourselves. When we feel lonely be reminded that they can feel lonely too - reach out. Remember that church isn’t there for you. I mean this in the sense as seeing yourself as separate in some way - you too are part of the body of Christ and in that you too carry the responsibility of being the church in the way you are living and relating to others.

My comments are not intended to be critical or stir up negative thoughts but to bring awareness so we can work through these things. My heart is grieved by examples like GoodGirl’s - as I believe her deep sincerity and I believe much of the trouble sounds like it could have been lessened with better awareness and communication.

[Heirbyadoption]

When those who join come under OTC doctrine and subsequent identity as experienced among the COGICMs, that would seem to create a natural trepidation against leaving, so the only 25% departure from your group actually makes sense to me. Whereas the inverse among many Anabaptist groups (accepting other Anabaptists as valid members of the Church) would naturally lend itself to an easier departure. Not poking, just sharing an observation as I read the above.

I don’t think the otc belief really has anything to do with it… seekers who leave other plain groups often head straight towards being completely worldly. They just throw everything away, sometimes including any semblance of Christianity at all.

Respectfully agree to disagree, I suppose.

There is something fundamentally different about attending and then joining a Holdeman group than some other Mennonite groups. From what I have observed, Brethren and Apostolic Christian groups also seem to hold on to their seekers a lot better too. One guess I have for why is that there is much less of an insular “ethnic” culture to grapple with.

On that, I would heartily agree.