A fact is information minus emotion....

[Bootstrap]

For the most part, what Jesus said and taught is not even in view in our discussions here. In some ways, it's a lot like our approach to facts. Instead of making it about Jesus, or making it about facts, people do what you just did there.

"What makes you think anyone here could actually agree with your view of facts." That makes it a fight about my views.

Why not focus on Jesus or on facts instead?

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

For the most part, MN is not a place where we do that. We focus on being reactive about things that annoy us or our tribe instead.

That is sort of the point though, you have facts that people do not agree with and therefore intrinsically tied into a discussion about facts is about self.

Not intrinsically. It's simply a bad habit some people have - if they don't like what someone says, or disagree with it, they attack the person instead of explaining what they believe and why. They make it about the other person, not about Jesus, not about facts. I don't think it's Christlike. It's so prominent in our culture that people absorb it. Even in Mennonite circles.

And as far as I can tell, it's most prominent when it involves Trump, not when it involves what Jesus said and did or how we should live as the Kingdom of God. An awful lot of the claims made by people like Tucker Carlson become talking points, and anyone who pushes back against them is othered. I've decided not to play along, but it means getting hit on the head a lot. And it means simply accepting that some people are awfully reactive to me in a personal way. I can't help that.

That's not how we turn to Jesus. It's not how we turn to the Kingdom of God. It's not how we turn to facts. It's not how we become reasonable together. It's not the fruit of the Spirit.

[Bootstrap]

The Holy Spirit does not lead people into sin. The vast majority of people arguing for truth being from the Holy Spirit don't agree with each other and to involve the Holy Spirit in our petty disputes doesn't seem wise.

I disagree. I think we should involve the Holy Spirit deeply in the way we disagree with each other, starting with the fruit of the Spirit. And if we do that, we will not bite and devour each other.

We may not always come to the same answer - and neither did the New Testament church. Disagreement has always been present in the church. I think there are beliefs that take people clearly outside the Kingdom of God, but the way we handle disagreement is just as important as the way we conduct ourselves in other areas of morality.

You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

[silentreader]

The Holy Spirit does not lead people into sin. The vast majority of people arguing for truth being from the Holy Spirit don't agree with each other and to involve the Holy Spirit in our petty disputes doesn't seem wise.

I disagree. I think we should involve the Holy Spirit deeply in the way we disagree with each other, starting with the fruit of the Spirit. And if we do that, we will not bite and devour each other.

We may not always come to the same answer - and neither did the New Testament church. Disagreement has always been present in the church. I think there are beliefs that take people clearly outside the Kingdom of God, but the way we handle disagreement is just as important as the way we conduct ourselves in other areas of morality.

You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

A lot of "qualifications" in that passage to help us decide what the guidance of the Spirit actually does or does not look like.
Although the Spirit may not be directly referenced, I've thought quite a bit lately about Paul's statement in Romans 6, "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid! How can we...." Another possible identifier of Spirit guidance to go with the Fruit.

[GaryK]

For the most part, what Jesus said and taught is not even in view in our discussions here. In some ways, it's a lot like our approach to facts. Instead of making it about Jesus, or making it about facts, people do what you just did there.

"What makes you think anyone here could actually agree with your view of facts." That makes it a fight about my views.

Why not focus on Jesus or on facts instead?



For the most part, MN is not a place where we do that. We focus on being reactive about things that annoy us or our tribe instead.

That is sort of the point though, you have facts that people do not agree with and therefore intrinsically tied into a discussion about facts is about self.

Not intrinsically. It's simply a bad habit some people have - if they don't like what someone says, or disagree with it, they attack the person instead of explaining what they believe and why. They make it about the other person, not about Jesus, not about facts. I don't think it's Christlike. It's so prominent in our culture that people absorb it. Even in Mennonite circles.

And as far as I can tell, it's most prominent when it involves Trump, not when it involves what Jesus said and did or how we should live as the Kingdom of God. An awful lot of the claims made by people like Tucker Carlson become talking points, and anyone who pushes back against them is othered. I've decided not to play along, but it means getting hit on the head a lot. And it means simply accepting that some people are awfully reactive to me in a personal way. I can't help that.

That's not how we turn to Jesus. It's not how we turn to the Kingdom of God. It's not how we turn to facts. It's not how we become reasonable together. It's not the fruit of the Spirit.

I believe if there was as much interest in providing "facts" about the wrongdoing of left leaning politicians as there is concerning Trump, people would take more seriously what is said about him.

I happen to read enough left-leaning media to observe the left's talking points being promoted on MN as well.

It was amusing to me to observe the responses of those on MN who seem to align more with the left when I recently stated that I hope Trump doesn't run again. There were some likes from people my posts seldom get likes from.

[Bootstrap]

I believe if there was as much interest in providing "facts" about the wrongdoing of left leaning politicians as there is concerning Trump, people would take more seriously what is said about him.

Again, why not simply focus on facts if we are discussing facts, or on what Jesus said and did, or his teaching about the Kingdom of God?

Dismissing people without engaging with what they are actually saying is often the main thing that happens on MennoNet. We rarely manage to even discuss facts. We're too busy acting like factions.

[GaryK]

I believe if there was as much interest in providing "facts" about the wrongdoing of left leaning politicians as there is concerning Trump, people would take more seriously what is said about him.

Again, why not simply focus on facts if we are discussing facts, or on what Jesus said and did, or his teaching about the Kingdom of God?

Dismissing people without engaging with what they are actually saying is often the main thing that happens on MennoNet. We rarely manage to even discuss facts. We're too busy acting like factions.

I'm not convinced that followers of Jesus should be invested in proving political "facts".

[Sudsy]

I believe if there was as much interest in providing "facts" about the wrongdoing of left leaning politicians as there is concerning Trump, people would take more seriously what is said about him.

Again, why not simply focus on facts if we are discussing facts, or on what Jesus said and did, or his teaching about the Kingdom of God?

Dismissing people without engaging with what they are actually saying is often the main thing that happens on MennoNet. We rarely manage to even discuss facts. We're too busy acting like factions.

I'm not convinced that followers of Jesus should be invested in proving political "facts".

Amen. It would be nice to keep politics isolated to the politics forum where some of us have chosen not to go to.

[ohio jones]

Amen. It would be nice to keep politics isolated to the politics forum where some of us have chosen not to go to.

This appears to be information plus emotion, therefore (if the OP is correct) not a fact.

Have we just disproved the OP?

[GaryK]

We're too busy acting like factions.

Are you including yourself in this "we're"?

Politics is about factions. I'm not convinced political discussions on MN can be faction free.

[Bootstrap]

We're too busy acting like factions.

Are you including yourself in this "we're"?

I am 100% asking for everyone's help with this:

Again, why not simply focus on facts if we are discussing facts, or on what Jesus said and did, or his teaching about the Kingdom of God?

Dismissing people without engaging with what they are actually saying is often the main thing that happens on MennoNet. We rarely manage to even discuss facts. We're too busy acting like factions.

And not just me, but others as well. Can you say the same things you say to me, just as loudly, to people who are expressing political views you agree with?

How do we avoid making everything a fight where "our side" has to win, and "our side" is not the Kingdom of God? How do we turn to Jesus and the Kingdom of God instead of turning on each other?

Politics is about factions. I'm not convinced political discussions on MN can be faction free.

Politics really has two meanings that are quite different from each other:

1. What policies allow people in civil society to live life together in ways that work well?
2. Fights among political factions.

You may be right - MN may not be a place where we can actually discuss #1. But to me, it also seems like a place where #2 is one of the predominant themes - it really does seem like some people are insisting that political loyalties of various kinds are central identity questions for Christians. If we were detached from politics, we could just let That Other Kingdom figure out what happened in the last election and how to address claims of wrongdoing by Trump.

I can go away for weeks or a month at a time and that doesn't change. And outside of MN, I don't find myself in these conversations. I don't think I have the power to make MN mostly about other things without a lot of help from people like you.