Where Did They Go?

[Wade]

Shed our children?

I agree. But yet disagree - I believe it is a paradox.
I know it got redirected but I believe a key to seeing this issue has to do with birth control and why it is used.

Anabaptist using birth control have already shed their potential children! - but what for? And what "escalator" have they jumped onto?

The topic of conversation is the children of plain/conservative Anabaptists who don't join our churches and instead abandon plain/conservative Anabaptism altogether.

Having large families won't fix that. I can think of a large family where every child has left the church.

I can also think of a large family that has used birth control, every child has (so far) stayed in church. At nearly a dozen kids with a mother with health issues, especially if she had any more - I don't see how we can say they made a bad decision.

If you quoted the rest of my post it would be more clear.

I said nothing about large families fixing the problem with retention.

Think about this:
God publicly confessed how pleased He was with His son and also lifted Him in raising Him the third day. It is only natural as we see even by example of God that we don't love others more than our own children, but maybe as much. I would like to believe that I have met Mennonites that have and do love me as much as their own children but I don't think I could say that any have loved me more than their own children.
Because of this; subconsciously people will never expect you to love them more than how much you love your own children, so if you don't have a deep care for your children like God did for His son then they will not be encouraged or believe that you really care about them that much either.
It is about loving our children more than the things of this world - children and people see it more clearly than we think we let on. If we are losing our children then we need to turn our hearts to them or at least that was prophesied by Malachi...

Josh - We are Lord willing expecting a child within the next 2 months. Complications from the last pregnancy/labour leave us with any information we can find showing successful delivers of 2 ever after what happened(there must be more but this is all we came up with - when we scanned the internet and talked to doctors...)
Don't get me wrong, I have thought lots about birth control and I don't condemn it, and am considering it even while we only have five born children right now - not even close to a dozen.

Large families won't fix anything - loving our children, and others as our selves will. Many things in Christianity are a by-product of right rather being right in themselves.

[Wayne in Maine]

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.

The simple fact is that Jesus called individuals to follow Him, He never gave instructions on how to breed and socialize new believers from among your children. When the "church" begins to focus on making "disciples" by having more children and socializing their progeny to be "good Christians", then the church is no different from the party of the Pharisees in 1st century Palestine.

[Wade]

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.

The simple fact is that Jesus called individuals to follow Him, He never gave instructions on how to breed and socialize new believers from among your children. When the "church" begins to focus on making "disciples" by having more children and socializing their progeny to be "good Christians", then the church is no different from the party of the Pharisees in 1st century Palestine.

Agreed.

With no intent of debate but rather looking for balance, I would had: He did say we will know them by their fruits as well.

[temporal1]

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.

The simple fact is that Jesus called individuals to follow Him, He never gave instructions on how to breed and socialize new believers from among your children. When the "church" begins to focus on making "disciples" by having more children and socializing their progeny to be "good Christians", then the church is no different from the party of the Pharisees in 1st century Palestine.

Agreed.
With no intent of debate but rather looking for balance, I would had: He did say we will know them by their fruits as well.

i believe Wayne's points, and, i believe Wade's points, and, i believe Jesus "meant it when He said" .. just because we do not understand in full, does not mean there is a (true paradox.) there are abundant scriptures about God's creation, babies and children, and how the blessed will live on .. through generations, i.e., family.

a few years ago, i read something (somewhere) that pointed out, in scriptures, the word, "children," does not always refer to minors-dependents; through Jesus Christ, we adults come to Him to become children of God. now i read a little differently, as i wonder about this.

it's something "we know," but, do we really think about it?
it seems (to me) when children are the topic, it's nearly always minors-dependents we have in mind. maybe not so often the case of what Jesus has in mind (?)

this is not what i originally read, but, a few passages on this:
Child of God
https://www.openbible.info/topics/child_of_god

[Wayne in Maine]

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.

The simple fact is that Jesus called individuals to follow Him, He never gave instructions on how to breed and socialize new believers from among your children. When the "church" begins to focus on making "disciples" by having more children and socializing their progeny to be "good Christians", then the church is no different from the party of the Pharisees in 1st century Palestine.

Agreed.

With no intent of debate but rather looking for balance, I would had: He did say we will know them by their fruits as well.

I do not think Jesus was referring to the quantity of the fruits of our loins, nor to the quality thereof.

[Wade]

The simple fact is that Jesus called individuals to follow Him, He never gave instructions on how to breed and socialize new believers from among your children. When the "church" begins to focus on making "disciples" by having more children and socializing their progeny to be "good Christians", then the church is no different from the party of the Pharisees in 1st century Palestine.

Agreed.

With no intent of debate but rather looking for balance, I would had: He did say we will know them by their fruits as well.

I do not think Jesus was referring to the quantity of the fruits of our loins, nor to the quality thereof.

Your free to believe whatever you would like.

[temporal1]

This thread, Page 2

Which means that if we want to be "Anabaptists" we have to be willing to shed our children and make disciples of all nations.

This is a general point you share, Jesus's words you cite are known, they are important. Would you share about how you live this in your life?

Some may not know what a beautiful family you have, how well you have provided for them (i believe,) how much (i believe) you love them, and, (i believe) how fortunate they are to have you.

Your personal life experience serves as a testament to your faith, to your understanding of Jesus's words. You have not lived a thoughtless life.

[EdselB]

To answer the question, "Where did they Go?", I guess you have to know from where they came.

Here is breakdown of Amish and Mennonite groups around 1905 and 1906. These numbers are based on J.S. Hartzler and Daniel Kauffman, Mennonite Church History (1905), and the U.S. Census, Religious Bodies, 1906.

-----Kauffman and Hertzler (US & Canada) 1905-------1906 US Census
Old Order Amish ----------------------------------5,743------5,043 (Swiss-Brethren)
Amish-Mennonites--------------------------------7,858------7,640 (Swiss-Brethren)
Progressive Amish (Egli/Stuckey)---------------2,930-----2,330 (Swiss-Brethren)

Old Mennonites----------------------------------18,947----18,610 (Swiss-Brethren)
Old Order Mennonites --------------------------- 2,700------NA--- (Swiss-Brethren)
Reformed Mennonites------------------------------NA-- ----2,079 (Swiss-Brethren)
Mennonite Brethren in Christ------------------- 5,020-----2,801 (Swiss-Brethren)

General Conference Mennonite Church-----------NA-----11,661 (5,200 are from Swiss-Brethren background; 6,542 from Russian Mennonite background)
Church of God in Christ, Mennonite--------------800--------562 (In the 1906 Census, 224 are Swiss Brethren background; 338 are Russian Mennonite)
Mennonite Brethren---------------------------------NA------2,533 (Russian Mennonite)
Nebraska and Minnesota Conference of Mennonites-------545 (Russian Mennonite)

[temporal1]

EdselB, your posts are invaluable.

Wayne, i hope my words above are not mistaken as insolent, not intended.
i am interested in knowing more about your point, and what it means to those who love Jesus.
Jesus made this point:

Matthew 12:47-50
Jesus' Mother and Brothers
…47Someone told Him, “Look, Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to You.”
48But Jesus replied, “Who is My mother, and who are My brothers?”
49Pointing to His disciples, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers.…
50For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Commentaries -
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/12-47.htm
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
"12:46-50 Christ's preaching was plain, easy, and familiar, and suited to his hearers.
His mother and brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him, when they should have been standing within, desiring to hear him.

Frequently, those who are nearest to the means of knowledge and grace are most negligent.
We are apt to neglect that which we think we may have any day, forgetting that to-morrow is not ours.

We often meet with hinderances in our work from friends about us, and are taken off by care for the things of this life, from the concerns of our souls.

Christ was so intent on his work, that no natural or other duty took him from it.

Not that, under pretence of religion, we may be disrespectful to parents, or unkind to relations;
but the lesser duty must stand by, while the greater is done.

Let us cease from men, and cleave to Christ; let us look upon every Christian, in whatever condition of life, as the brother, sister, or mother of the Lord of glory; let us love, respect, and be kind to them, for his sake, and after his example."

[Josh]

it's something "we know," but, do we really think about it?
it seems (to me) when children are the topic, it's nearly always minors-dependents we have in mind. maybe not so often the case of what Jesus has in mind (?)

this is not what i originally read, but, a few passages on this:
Child of God
https://www.openbible.info/topics/child_of_god

For starters, their concept of a child was someone under the age of 12 (or so), with a transition to adulthood then.

Our concept of a minor / dependent is quite different. Someone back then would be a "dependent" in terms of land, money, etc. on their parents well into adulthood and even a grandfather would still have authority to make decisions for his sons and grandsons.

So I think what Jesus had in mind is the simplicity with which a child age 5 or 10 views the world, and the simplicity in which they tend to trust their parents or trust other adults.