The Nicene Creed

General Christian Theology
KingdomBuilder

Re: The Nicene Creed

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Josh wrote:The Nicene vs Arian council was basically a political battle. Most Arian countries were the ones surrounding Ancient Rome, and Rome itself was anti-Arian.

The Arians were a lot better at sending out missionaries, so most newer people groups who were Christians were Arians.

The actual council involved threats of violence and the anti-Arians basically came better armed and with more troops backing them. So they won the council.

Jesus himself was certainly grieved to see men threatening to kill each other over opinions on matters like his pre-existence. Jesus didn’t tell us what christology to have or what doctrine of the Trinity to have. He did tell us to stop killing, doing violence, and to love our enemies. The 4th century ecumenical councils were the polar opposite of that.

I would take these creeds more seriously if they ever mentioned the Sermon on the Mount. Instead, these creeds pervert the gospel into a doctrine of man.
Amen.
If the trinity (and all the background of what brought about it's mandate) is a beautiful inspiration to some, then that's on them.
Don't expect me to find it as such, and don't expect me to become convinced that it's required for salvation. Period
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MaxPC

Re: The Nicene Creed

Post by MaxPC »

KingdomBuilder wrote:
Amen.
If the trinity (and all the background of what brought about it's mandate) is a beautiful inspiration to some, then that's on them.
Don't expect me to find it as such, and don't expect me to become convinced that it's required for salvation. Period
Even though Jesus Himself defines the Holy Trinity?

[bible]Matthew28,19[/bible]
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MaxPC

Re: The Nicene Creed

Post by MaxPC »

KingdomBuilder wrote:
Amen.
If the trinity (and all the background of what brought about it's mandate) is a beautiful inspiration to some, then that's on them.
Don't expect me to find it as such, and don't expect me to become convinced that it's required for salvation. Period
Even though Jesus Himself defines the Holy Trinity?

[bible]Matthew28,19[/bible]
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KingdomBuilder

Re: The Nicene Creed

Post by KingdomBuilder »

MaxPC wrote:
KingdomBuilder wrote:
Amen.
If the trinity (and all the background of what brought about it's mandate) is a beautiful inspiration to some, then that's on them.
Don't expect me to find it as such, and don't expect me to become convinced that it's required for salvation. Period
Even though Jesus Himself defines the Holy Trinity?

[bible]Matthew28,19[/bible]
If you think the mere statement of the existence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit means that they are all one and "coequal, coeternal", then have at it.

I'm not wanting to be put on the defensive over something like this right now. My position is clear and, being catholic, yours is too. We aint gonna change a thing discussing it :wave:
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MaxPC

Re: The Nicene Creed

Post by MaxPC »

KingdomBuilder wrote:
MaxPC wrote:
KingdomBuilder wrote:
Amen.
If the trinity (and all the background of what brought about it's mandate) is a beautiful inspiration to some, then that's on them.
Don't expect me to find it as such, and don't expect me to become convinced that it's required for salvation. Period
Even though Jesus Himself defines the Holy Trinity?

[bible]Matthew28,19[/bible]
If you think the mere statement of the existence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit means that they are all one and "coequal, coeternal", then have at it.

I'm not wanting to be put on the defensive over something like this right now. My position is clear and, being catholic, yours is too. We aint gonna change a thing discussing it :wave:
Having a rough day today?
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temporal1

Re: The Nicene Creed

Post by temporal1 »

My, my.
This topic has taken a turn. :-|
Evidently, coming to blows over understandings has not ended.
boot:
.. The Creed commits us to nothing as long as we stand safely between the pews and say the right words.
Are you suggesting not reciting The Nicene Creed prevents “standing safely between the pews?”
Because, in other words, this (lukewarm) condition of hearts (even among Anabaptists) has been discussed now+then on this forum.
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HondurasKeiser

Re: The Nicene Creed

Post by HondurasKeiser »

I'd like to come out in favor of both the creeds and Trinitarian theology more specifically. I think it's a mistake to insist that because the creeds failed to mention the life of Jesus that they are in some way flawed, less-than or not valuable. So too it is wrong to assume that because some of the ecumenical councils were presided over by Constantine and involved violent and unchristian machinations that they ought to be ignored; God clearly and repeatedly uses sinful people, even sinful actions for glorifying ends both in the Bible and throughout the history of the Church. As Valerie pointed out, the councils were called to deal with specific heresies that were growing in strength in the early church. As such, they weren't meant to be exhaustive doctrinal or normative statements rather they were written over the course of a number of different councils to combat dangerous conceptions of God and Christ that were held by both pagan and rival, heretical Christian factions. For example, the first stanza of the Nicene Creed states:
WE BELIEVE in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

This was a statement declaring for all the world to see that the Christian God is the creator of everything and that creation is, by extension, good. This was a refutation not so much of Christian heretics but rather of certain influential Greek and Roman pagans that held that the body/physical world was corrupted, worthless and should be thusly denigrated. This may not seem like a pertinent issue now and to modern evangelicals and Anabaptists, it may seem that the creeds represent an over-intellectualizing of the faith to the detriment of praxis and a lived-out faith. I would counter though that the early Church Fathers rightly recognized that ideas have consequences; that if allowed to work themselves out logically and over the course of generations, that these ideas would lead people away from God, away from a saving faith and away from a praxis centered on Jesus. Church history gives us adequate examples of groups that denigrated the body and elevated the spiritual to their detriment e.g. self-flagellation, harmful teachings on sex, refusal of modern medicine, hyper-spiritualization of the faith, Enlightenment focus on the rational, etc. Likewise, it may be fun to denigrate the Trinity, declare it unbiblical and that belief in which is unnecessary for a saving faith, but I encourage you to look at groups of so-called Christians that have rejected an orthodox understanding of the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Unitarians in New England may have started out nearly indistinguishable from their Calvinist cousins and neighbors but the Unitarian Church today, just a short 150 years later, is universalist in its orientation and decidedly non-Christian in nearly every aspect, including worship and praxis. The Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons as well declare a bastardized understanding of Jesus' relationship with the Father, and I would posit that such an understanding of Christ as being simply first among God's created order is fundamental and foundational to both groups' theology; as such we rightly recognize them to be outside the bounds of Christianity.

It seems odd to me that conservative Anabaptists are particularly opposed or at best ambivalent about the creeds and their emphasis on getting conceptions about God, however incomplete, correct. All one needs to do is peruse a thread on shifting church standards and the alarm that is raised about "crowding the fence" to see that in the realm of praxis, they rightly understand that if we allow certain thinking to go unchecked that it truly does lead to a slippery slope that slides right out of a distinctive Anabaptism. Praxis though is not First Things, praxis flows out of First Things. Anabaptists insist, and rightly so, that Christianity must be a lived and worked-out faith, a daily dying to self in the practical. If we want to maintain a right living though we must maintain a right thinking about the very foundational notions of our faith. Otherwise our practice and worship will become unmoored from any deeper understanding and will inevitably drift away.
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Josh

Re: The Nicene Creed

Post by Josh »

The ecumenical councils would have done better to focus on the absolute and total heresy of replacing "love your enemies" with "kill your enemies". They completely failed to do so.

I fail to see any value at all in the institutions they left in their wake. To think that following Jesus means killing people who don't quite have the right theological opinions about Jesus is to indeed not know who Jesus is at all.
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HondurasKeiser

Re: The Nicene Creed

Post by HondurasKeiser »

Josh wrote:The ecumenical councils would have done better to focus on the absolute and total heresy of replacing "love your enemies" with "kill your enemies". They completely failed to do so.

I fail to see any value at all in the institutions they left in their wake. To think that following Jesus means killing people who don't quite have the right theological opinions about Jesus is to indeed not know who Jesus is at all.
Well by that logic we can dispense with Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Knox, the Puritans and modern evangelicalism. I'm sure they have nothing good to offer.
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HondurasKeiser

Re: The Nicene Creed

Post by HondurasKeiser »

Josh wrote:The ecumenical councils would have done better to focus on the absolute and total heresy of replacing "love your enemies" with "kill your enemies". They completely failed to do so.

I fail to see any value at all in the institutions they left in their wake. To think that following Jesus means killing people who don't quite have the right theological opinions about Jesus is to indeed not know who Jesus is at all.
More pointedly, I think this is a failure to see the difference between praxis and foundational doctrines of the faith. If we fail to affirm in a full-throated way that Jesus is God, that means he's man. Maybe, we don't come to that conclusion today or tomorrow, but within a few generations Jesus becomes nothing more than a good man. That renders his teachings on 'loving our enemies' about as normative as you feel the creeds are, which is to say not very.
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