Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Bootstrap

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:21 am Another question is “why make everything revolve around Putin?”
Why do we think that Putin's military invasion, which only he could authorize and only he can stop, revolves around Putin?

Because it does.

Well, it does in one way. In a more important way, it revolves around the innocent victims of this war, which has decimated whole regions of Ukraine, with attacks that clearly target civilians and a large number of war crimes and atrocities.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:21 am Another question is “why make everything revolve around Putin?”

A lot of Russian politicians and military officials disagree with Putin.
Sure, and it gets them jailed like Alexei Navalny who is the most prominent opposition politician to Putin. Even though he too is a Russian nationalist. What does he say about Putin and this war? Funny you ask. He puts the onus entirely on Putin rather than NATO or Ukraine: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... a-ukraine/
Thus, we can state the following:

The war with Ukraine was started and waged, of course, by Putin, trying to solve his domestic political problems. But the real war party is the entire elite and the system of power itself, which is an endlessly self-reproducing Russian authoritarianism of the imperial kind. External aggression in any form, from diplomatic rhetoric to outright warfare, is its preferred mode of operation, and Ukraine is its preferred target. This self-generated imperial authoritarianism is the real curse of Russia and the cause of all its troubles. We cannot get rid of it, despite the opportunities regularly provided by history.

Russia had its last chance of this kind after the end of the U.S.S.R., but both the democratic public inside the country and Western leaders at the time made the monstrous mistake of agreeing to the model — proposed by Boris Yeltsin’s team — of a presidential republic with enormous powers for the leader. Giving plenty of power to a good guy seemed logical at the time.

Yet the inevitable soon happened: The good guy went bad. To begin with, he started a war (the Chechen war) himself, and then, without normal elections and fair procedures, he handed over power to the cynical and corrupt Soviet imperialists led by Putin. They have caused several wars and countless international provocations, and are now tormenting a neighboring nation, committing horrible crimes for which neither many generations of Ukrainians nor our own children will forgive us.

In the 31 years since the collapse of the U.S.S.R., we have witnessed a clear pattern: The countries that chose the parliamentary republic model (the Baltic states) are thriving and have successfully joined Europe. Those that chose the presidential-parliamentary model (Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia) have faced persistent instability and made little progress. Those that chose strong presidential power (Russia, Belarus and the Central Asian republics) have succumbed to rigid authoritarianism, most of them permanently engaged in military conflicts with their neighbors, daydreaming about their own little empires.

In short, strategic victory means bringing Russia back to this key historical juncture and letting the Russian people make the right choice.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 11:27 am
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:21 am Another question is “why make everything revolve around Putin?”

A lot of Russian politicians and military officials disagree with Putin.
Sure, and it gets them jailed like Alexei Navalny who is the most prominent opposition politician to Putin. Even though he too is a Russian nationalist. What does he say about Putin and this war? Funny you ask. He puts the onus entirely on Putin rather than NATO or Ukraine: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... a-ukraine/
I generally do not put a lot of stock into what a neo-Nazi like Navalny thinks.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
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Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 11:31 am
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 11:27 am
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:21 am Another question is “why make everything revolve around Putin?”

A lot of Russian politicians and military officials disagree with Putin.
Sure, and it gets them jailed like Alexei Navalny who is the most prominent opposition politician to Putin. Even though he too is a Russian nationalist. What does he say about Putin and this war? Funny you ask. He puts the onus entirely on Putin rather than NATO or Ukraine: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... a-ukraine/
I generally do not put a lot of stock into what a neo-Nazi like Navalny thinks.
But apparently you put stock in what a neo-Nazi like Putin thinks.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
temporal1

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by temporal1 »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:21 am Another question is “why make everything revolve around Putin?”

A lot of Russian politicians and military officials disagree with Putin.

They think the Ukraine should have been invaded much more brutally and call for a much harsher war.
Putin is moderate, compared to the rest of the electoral slate.

Even left wing candidates in Russia would want to see a restoration of the USSR and see Western interference as illegitimate.
These people win substantial minorities in elections.
Josh,
You FAIL MISERABLY at promotion of Just War. “Stop that!” :?
Do not question the honor of U.S. Congress, the U.S. MIC. Western mainstream media. The obvious good guys.

Putin bad, it’s all his doing, he must be destroyed on every level imaginable. Razing Ukraine is the means to that end.
barnhart lectured:
.. Falco, if you want to understand the Anabaptist point of view, you must leave behind some presuppositions about authority, rule and power and start from a different foundation.

Anabaptism assumes that Jesus' kingdom is increased by becoming Christlike, not by ruling through coersion and violence. ..
Page 16 / http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... &start=150

i’m not sure, but i’m thinking, regarding Ukraine, this might have translated into, 1) over years, not just in the heat of the moment, prevention of violence through diplomacy; or, failing that, 2) upon attack, non-resistance, prayer, grace, love.

on MD, these sorts of responses were discussed in some length. some were radical.
for instance, offering food in peace to attackers. not resisting burglars, leaving doors unlocked. not returning rage for violence (even in extremes of family being physically attacked).

on this topic, response has been largely focused on Putin-bad, he must be stopped, Ukraine is “fortunate” to have Western military+billions (for self-destruction) - after all, it’s ALL Putin’s fault. (sometimes i wonder what goes on in Z’s private mind as he observes the cost of Western friends?) Ukraine is ground zero for west-east “conflict.” location-location.

old saying: “2 wrongs don’t make 1 right.” Jesus didn’t coin this phrase, He modeled it, tho.
He wasn’t a “THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS” kinda guy, either. He led away from secular logic. He didn’t dig in to defend it.

Image
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temporal1

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by temporal1 »

Elon Musk @elonmusk
Ukraine-Russia Peace:

- Redo elections of annexed regions under UN supervision. Russia leaves if that is will of the people.

- Crimea formally part of Russia, as it has been since 1783 (until Khrushchev’s mistake).

- Water supply to Crimea assured.

- Ukraine remains neutral.
Gravitas: “Elon Musk proposes peace plan for Ukraine and Russia” / -7min

Description:
Elon Musk's peace plan for Ukraine has been described as 'pro-Russian' by western commentators. :?
What are the four main steps included in Musk's proposal?
How practical is it?


“Lindsey Graham Locks Horns With Elon Musk, Calls His Plan for Russia-Ukraine Conflict ‘Dumb': ‘He Needs to Understand the Facts’ “
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/lin ... 27995.html


“Elon Musk: SpaceX Has Spent $80M to Support Ukraine With Starlink”
Musk is trying to defend his support for Ukraine amid accusations he adopted a pro-Kremlin stance with a controversial tweet about the Ukrainian-Russian war. :?
https://www.pcmag.com/news/elon-musk-sp ... h-starlink

It sure appears to me that Elon Musk has proven he is very invested in Ukraine. $$$$
Being pragmatic/practical is usually sound advice. It can save time, money, lives.
Last edited by temporal1 on Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Bootstrap

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Bootstrap »

Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:06 pm Russia is certainly not completely innocent here, but painting Russia as the sole aggressor here is both false and unlikely to lead to a diplomatic resolution of conflict, at least imo.
Do you know the definition of "aggressor" in the context of war? Russia is, in fact, the sole aggressor. Google it, if you want.

No matter what is going on, invading another country and decimating another country is a no-no. It really is that simple. If you are against war, you are against invading countries and killing lots and lots of civilians and destroying cities and villages and torturing people and committing war crimes. And yes, sometimes the United States has done these things. Doesn't make it right. Doesn't make it excusable.
Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:06 pm NATO is also a real aggressor against Russia here, imo. Russia's invasion of Ukraine was the culmination of many acts of aggression by NATO going back decades. It was all explained by Putin at the beginning of this whole thing. Strange how so many Democrats forget that and only focus on Russia's current aggression.

This could have been avoided with diplomacy at the beginning, at least in my opinion, but that failed. NATO wasn't interested, imo.
NATO is not threatening Russia or invading Russia. It is protecting some of Russia's neighbors so that they don't get invaded like Ukraine. I don't think that's the same thing as military aggression. Can you see why Ukraine wanted help against a Russian threat? I'm not about That Other Kingdom, I don't know what to advise nations who face this kind of threat, but military imperialism and blatant disregard for human life are real problems, not some silly politically-motivated fantasy.

Can you name a single instance of NATO aggression against Russia or the Warsaw pact in the entire history of NATO? In fact, NATO was having a hard time even holding itself together before Russia started threatening its neighbors again. Putin has been an evangelist for NATO.

Invading other countries is bad. Why is that controversial? Especially among people who say they are against war?
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temporal1

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by temporal1 »

More repetition ..

March 2022 / “The U.S. and NATO Helped Trigger the Ukraine War. It’s Not ‘Siding With Putin’ to Admit It”
But Moscow’s cruel overreaction deserves emphatic condemnation.
https://www.cato.org/commentary/us-nato ... n-admit-it
U.S. and European officials blew through one red light after another.


The question is, now we’re here, what next??
The Blame Game doesn’t resolve anything. Nor does it last. It cannot sustain life.
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Bootstrap

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:35 pm More repetition ..

March 2022 / “The U.S. and NATO Helped Trigger the Ukraine War. It’s Not ‘Siding With Putin’ to Admit It”
But Moscow’s cruel overreaction deserves emphatic condemnation.
https://www.cato.org/commentary/us-nato ... n-admit-it
I agree with the first paragraph of this:
Vladimir Putin’s decision to launch a full‐​scale invasion of Ukraine is a monstrous act of aggression that has plunged the world into a perilous situation. By any reasonable standard, his move was an over‐​the‐​top response to any Ukrainian or NATO provocations. However, that conclusion is different from saying that there were no provocations, as far too many policymakers and pundits in the West are doing now.
But people seem to be pushing back on the notion that Putin is doing something monstrous and blatantly wrong. And sometimes implying that Ukraine deserves what it gets. That doesn't seem like a good way to oppose warmongering.
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nett
Posts: 1953
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Affiliation: Midwest Fellowship

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by nett »

Ken wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:12 pm But apparently you put stock in what a neo-Nazi like Putin thinks.
When liberals use nazi to mean, "anyone I don't like", the word tends to lose its meaning.
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