Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Josh]

Don't you get tired of parroting pro-Kremlin and pro-Putin talking points here Josh? It must be exhausting to keep track of.

I don't really pay attention to Russian wartime propaganda at all.

The rape of women and children by occupying Russian forces in Ukraine is one of the most extensively documented war crimes in history. There have been all manner of independent human rights investigators interviewing victims and documenting crimes across formerly occupied towns in Ukraine.

No, it is not "one of the most extensively documented war crimes in history". For a start, documenting a war crime means documenting it by people who are neutral, i.e., not done by people who are one side of an active war. Good examples of who could do such an investigation (who have not documented any such war crimes) would be China, India, etc.

One can find hundreds upon hundreds of first-hand news stories about rape, murder, torture, and other human rights violations by Russian troops in Ukraine from reliable independent media sources that span the political spectrum.

First hand? You're saying you've been over to Ukraine and talked to these people yourself?

You are accusing Soloist's wife of lying and disseminating propaganda?!?

Not lying intentionally, just repeating unsubstantiated information from someone else.

Here is an article from the UK about this very topic and the increased demand for abortions and abortion pills in Ukraine: https://inews.co.uk/news/abortion-pills ... en-1586962

Obvious wartime propaganda.

[Ken]

Don't you get tired of parroting pro-Kremlin and pro-Putin talking points here Josh? It must be exhausting to keep track of.

I don't really pay attention to Russian wartime propaganda at all.

The rape of women and children by occupying Russian forces in Ukraine is one of the most extensively documented war crimes in history. There have been all manner of independent human rights investigators interviewing victims and documenting crimes across formerly occupied towns in Ukraine.

No, it is not "one of the most extensively documented war crimes in history". For a start, documenting a war crime means documenting it by people who are neutral, i.e., not done by people who are one side of an active war. Good examples of who could do such an investigation (who have not documented any such war crimes) would be China, India, etc.

One can find hundreds upon hundreds of first-hand news stories about rape, murder, torture, and other human rights violations by Russian troops in Ukraine from reliable independent media sources that span the political spectrum.

First hand? You're saying you've been over to Ukraine and talked to these people yourself?

You are accusing Soloist's wife of lying and disseminating propaganda?!?

Not lying intentionally, just repeating unsubstantiated information from someone else.

Here is an article from the UK about this very topic and the increased demand for abortions and abortion pills in Ukraine: https://inews.co.uk/news/abortion-pills ... en-1586962

Obvious wartime propaganda.

There are independent neutral human rights investors from the UN and various other international organizations all over Ukraine right now documenting war crimes.

And "first hand" means that investigators and reporters talk directly to the victims rather than repeating rumors or 3rd hand reports.

As for I-News, the source of the article above? That is the online portal of the Independent which is one of the most respected centrist newspapers in the UK and considered by opinion polls to be the most trusted online new source in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_(newspaper)

[Josh]

Except that newspaper isn't substantiating these claims. They're just reporting claims other people have made:

Lyudmila Denisova, Ukraine’s human rights ombudswoman, is investigating more than 50 cases of sexual violence by Russian troops in areas such as Bucha, where the chief regional prosecutor claimed that over 600 bodies had been found.

Ms Denisova has accused the Russian army of several instances of rape including the gang-rape of a 14-year-old girl who became pregnant; of 25 women and girls locked in a basement; and of an 11-year-old boy in front of his mother.

This is a rather fantastical accusation, but one that so far has no proof at all. Another one of her claims reported in the NY Post:

Twenty five women and girls – aged as young as 14 – were “systematically raped” by Russian troops in the town of Bucha, according to Ukrainian authorities, with nine now pregnant.

Ukraine’s ombudsman for human rights, Lyudmyla Denisova, said the women were repeatedly raped in the basement of a house which was being occupied by Kremlin forces.

“Nine of them are pregnant,” she said. “Russian soldiers told them they would rape them to the point where they wouldn’t want sexual contact with any man, to prevent them from having Ukrainian children.”

This is rather obvious propaganda. The invasion started on March 24, and this was reported in mid-April - we're supposed to believe the Russian army is one of the most fecund on the planet, getting 36% of girls pregnant after a single encounter?

[Soloist]

My wife mentioned to me this evening a group out there with a doctor dealing with 12-16 year olds who are pregnant now from Russian troops and helping them and encouraging them to keep the babies. While I think that war brings out the worst and how we still have this issue in Japan and Iraq and Afghanistan, at least we prosecute our troops...

This is undoubtedly propaganda and false, and exactly the kind of nonsense that stirs people up to them go and commit actual atrocities against the “enemy”.

This is the wife. I probably would have been more skeptical if it came out of mainstream media, but one of the ladies treating them is Bruce Jantzi's doctor (MIM) and one of my friends here knows her as well, so I don't really see what motives she would have to make it up, even if it is hypothetically possible that she did. Russia is blaming Ukrainians for it, while the girls apparently say the people spoke and sounded Russian. Besides, our experience in the military would suggest that some of our guys need a lot of babysitting to keep them from doing messed up things even stateside, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Russian soldiers are similar. I doubt it's being actively promoted by the Russian government, but it's still messed up. Our guys did some pretty messed up things over in Vietnam too. I don't think the doctor is trying to promote we destroy the Russians because of this.

[Ken]

Except that newspaper isn't substantiating these claims. They're just reporting claims other people have made:

Lyudmila Denisova, Ukraine’s human rights ombudswoman, is investigating more than 50 cases of sexual violence by Russian troops in areas such as Bucha, where the chief regional prosecutor claimed that over 600 bodies had been found.

Ms Denisova has accused the Russian army of several instances of rape including the gang-rape of a 14-year-old girl who became pregnant; of 25 women and girls locked in a basement; and of an 11-year-old boy in front of his mother.

This is a rather fantastical accusation, but one that so far has no proof at all. Another one of her claims reported in the NY Post:

Twenty five women and girls – aged as young as 14 – were “systematically raped” by Russian troops in the town of Bucha, according to Ukrainian authorities, with nine now pregnant.

Ukraine’s ombudsman for human rights, Lyudmyla Denisova, said the women were repeatedly raped in the basement of a house which was being occupied by Kremlin forces.

“Nine of them are pregnant,” she said. “Russian soldiers told them they would rape them to the point where they wouldn’t want sexual contact with any man, to prevent them from having Ukrainian children.”

This is rather obvious propaganda. The invasion started on March 24, and this was reported in mid-April - we're supposed to believe the Russian army is one of the most fecund on the planet, getting 36% of girls pregnant after a single encounter?

You are off by a month. The invasion started on FEBRUARY 24th and within 24 hours many of these towns were under Russian occupation. So we are now talking 60+ days or 9 weeks since the invasion and occupation started and many of these towns were under Russian occupation for up to a month before being liberated. Some are still under Russian occupation and women have managed to flee to unoccupied territory.

Seriously Josh, if you are going to try to whitewash the Russian occupation and deny war crimes using dates, at least try to get the actual month correct.

[ohio jones]

My wife mentioned to me this evening a group out there with a doctor dealing with 12-16 year olds who are pregnant now from Russian troops and helping them and encouraging them to keep the babies. While I think that war brings out the worst and how we still have this issue in Japan and Iraq and Afghanistan, at least we prosecute our troops...

I don't see how calling this either "one of the most extensively documented war crimes in history" or "nonsense" is an appropriate response. Raping and pillaging are things that invading armies have always done, and there's no reason to believe this war would be any different. While we may not have reliable data on the scope of the problem, it seems like those of us who claim to be pro-life could at least speak positively of reports that victims are receiving assistance.

[Ken]

My wife mentioned to me this evening a group out there with a doctor dealing with 12-16 year olds who are pregnant now from Russian troops and helping them and encouraging them to keep the babies. While I think that war brings out the worst and how we still have this issue in Japan and Iraq and Afghanistan, at least we prosecute our troops...

I don't see how calling this either "one of the most extensively documented war crimes in history" or "nonsense" is an appropriate response. Raping and pillaging are things that invading armies have always done, and there's no reason to believe this war would be any different. While we may not have reliable data on the scope of the problem, it seems like those of us who claim to be pro-life could at least speak positively of reports that victims are receiving assistance.

This war is more extensively documented than other previous wars because of technology and the fact that the shifting boundaries and front lines of this war have enabled investigators access to crime scenes on a near real-time basis. Victims of German, Russian, or Japanese war crimes in WW2 often had to wait years, if ever, to be in a position to tell their stories. In addition,

• There is high-resolution satellite imagery that didn't exist in previous wars
• There is endless amounts of digital cell phone photography that is geo-located and time-stamped which didn't exist in previous wars
• There are thousands of cell phone and digital communication intercepts and text messages of soldiers discussing all of this and what they were doing in real time. This sort of thing didn't exist in previous wars like WW2 or Vietnam.
• Because Russia's encrypted military communication system failed, soldiers were talking and texting using unencrypted ordinary cell phone and open radio communications, much of which went through Ukrainian cell phone towers and cell providers and much of it was intercepted and recorded. That didn't happen in previous wars.
• There are teams of geo-location experts who are now able to analyze photographs and video and geo-locate it in time and space using satellite imagery which is something that wasn't possible from stuff like black and white film photographs taken during WW2 and other wars.
• Ukraine is a more digital society than Iraq was in in 2003 or Afghanistan was in 2001 or Syria was in 2011 or Yemen is today so there is just a whole lot more digital information being collected in real time. Including stuff like security camera footage from inside and outside of buildings in Ukrainian towns and cities.
• Russian soldiers posted enormous amounts of information on Russian and international social media sites including documentary evidence of war crimes that they were actively engaged in. That didn't happen in previous wars. This is the first TikTok and Instagram war. And a surprising number of Russian troops are actually implicating themselves in war crimes on social media. That certainly didn't happen in previous wars

Just yesterday on Twitter, for example, there was Russian postings that reported to show Russian prisoners of war being held in abusive conditions by the Ukrainian army. However open-source resources were able to use visual cues from the buildings in the video to actually geo-locate the prison to a facility in the Donbass that has been under Russian control since 2014. So it was actually the opposite of what was being claimed. It was prisoners under Russian control being abused, not Ukrainian. That sort of thing simply didn't happen in real time in previous wars.

[temporal1]

My wife mentioned to me this evening a group out there with a doctor dealing with 12-16 year olds who are pregnant now from Russian troops and helping them and encouraging them to keep the babies. While I think that war brings out the worst and how we still have this issue in Japan and Iraq and Afghanistan, at least we prosecute our troops...

I don't see how calling this either "one of the most extensively documented war crimes in history" or "nonsense" is an appropriate response. Raping and pillaging are things that invading armies have always done, and there's no reason to believe this war would be any different. While we may not have reliable data on the scope of the problem, it seems like those of us who claim to be pro-life could at least speak positively of reports that victims are receiving assistance.

i think so.
it’s ok to read early reports, knowing they can’t possibly be proven either way. ALLEGED seems to be a difficult concept.

i admit to skepticism, knowing full-well how eager abortion pill manufacturers are to get the poison into every possible use.
how many of these poison pills are ingested “just in case” of a pregnancy? i loathe to think of any female ingesting these poisons, let alone female children+teens who might or might not be pregnant. soldiers aren’t the only potential evil ones.

abortions, ditto. $$$$

- - - - - - -

photographs are helpful, but, NOT the whole story.
the instant gratification world needs to employ restraint. due process, “innocent until proven guilty,” etc., have not been totally replaced with mob mentality.

[Ken]

My wife mentioned to me this evening a group out there with a doctor dealing with 12-16 year olds who are pregnant now from Russian troops and helping them and encouraging them to keep the babies. While I think that war brings out the worst and how we still have this issue in Japan and Iraq and Afghanistan, at least we prosecute our troops...

I don't see how calling this either "one of the most extensively documented war crimes in history" or "nonsense" is an appropriate response. Raping and pillaging are things that invading armies have always done, and there's no reason to believe this war would be any different. While we may not have reliable data on the scope of the problem, it seems like those of us who claim to be pro-life could at least speak positively of reports that victims are receiving assistance.

i think so.
it’s ok to read early reports, knowing they can’t possibly be proven either way. ALLEGED seems to be a difficult concept.

i admit to skepticism, knowing full-well how eager abortion pill manufacturers are to get the poison into every possible use.
how many of these poison pills are ingested “just in case” of a pregnancy? i loathe to think of any female ingesting these poisons, let alone female children+teens who might or might not be pregnant. soldiers aren’t the only potential evil ones.

abortions, ditto. $$$$

- - - - - - -

photographs are helpful, but, NOT the whole story.
the instant gratification world needs to employ restraint. due process, “innocent until proven guilty,” etc., have not been totally replaced with mob mentality.

Unless Russia unconditionally surrenders and we have war crimes tribunals of the sort that happened after WW2 it is unlikely that many if any perpetrators will actually ever be brought to justice in a formal war crimes trial. Investigators know this. They are not stupid. But that doesn't stop them from collecting information, meticulously documenting it, and preparing a careful record of what happened.

And it isn't just photographs. There are all manner of digital communications, social media postings, victim testimonies, eye-witness testimonies, satellite imagery, actual forensic evidence collected from the scene such as mass graves. It all paints a comprehensive picture of each individual crime. Only a small amount of which is actually being made public.

I'm not sure what sort of due process or "innocent until proven guilty" process you are expecting to happen here. Most of these war criminals will never be brought to justice unless Russia agrees to do it itself. And that seems extremely unlikely given their conduct and history in every previous conflict.

[Josh]

You are off by a month. The invasion started on FEBRUARY 24th and within 24 hours many of these towns were under Russian occupation. So we are now talking 60+ days or 9 weeks since the invasion and occupation started and many of these towns were under Russian occupation for up to a month before being liberated. Some are still under Russian occupation and women have managed to flee to unoccupied territory.

Seriously Josh, if you are going to try to whitewash the Russian occupation and deny war crimes using dates, at least try to get the actual month correct.

Sorry, I meant Feb. 24.

According to your worldview, Russia invaded and then immediately had its forces attempting to conduct as many impregnations as possible. Do you understand how ridiculous that is to claim that?