We don't need to be afraid of CRT

[temporal1]

Josh:
Why are more men in prison than women? Is this due to systemic bias against men?

There are compelling reasons to think that yes...in fact there is systemic bias against men with regard to incarceration.

“in fact”.
you are a sweet young thing.

suggestion: less of this, more GaryK.

[RZehr]

We aren’t afraid of CRT. We don’t need it to tell us how we ought to live, or explain to us why people do sinful things either.

If one were to ask members of your congregation why white people are on average 7 times wealthier than black people...what do you think their response would be? Or why there are so many more black people in prison than white people proportionally? What would you/they say? Or why CA churches are so white...

Not sure what my quote has to do with your questions. I’m scratching my head. The only thing I can finally figure out- Are you really reading into my quote about “sinful things”, as in black people are poor and in jail or whatever because of their own actions, i.e. “sinful things”? If so, please remove your "everywhiteMennoniteisasecretracist" X-ray goggles.
I meant that as in we Christians in the church, do not need CRT or anything else to explain or excuse sinful things such as racism, or greed, or how to respond to spite or unfairness. I meant that we aren't afraid of CRT. Not afraid that it is right, not afraid that it is wrong. It may very well be mostly right. Doesn't matter, we already are told how to live and treat people and how to accept mistreatment.

7 times? We may already have that wealth discrepancy within our church. Wealth discrepancy is hardly something that we focus on. We believe the rich should live a modest and content life, and give generously as stewards of God. We believe that the poor are blessed, and the rich are warned. We believe poverty to be undesirable but not sinful.

As far as black people concern us, you have to realize that I may only see one black person in any given month. And they seem to be (based on the two I talked with and done business with here), doing just fine financially. So forgive us if we have more pressing things to be concerned about than black peoples financial prosperity. My county has 0.26% Black or African Americans (which is the highest black percentage in this tri-county area). And 11.7% of all families in my county live in poverty.

However, too your first two questions, I’d probably answer them much the same way you would. I’d say they were wildly mistreated. And today I expect in certain areas ethnic pride and racism is still alive and well. I think they are profiled.
And then I’d say, although I’m not sure you’d agree here, that it does seem to me, -from a distance- that for whatever reasons, which I would say are a combination of initial poverty from their slave ancestors, probably government racist policies and general racism in the past, they have ended up in less than desirable economic starting points in terms of housing and education and jobs. However, I'm not trying to speak strongly on this because as I've said, I just am not close enough to the matter, nor have studied in with more than a passing interest.
I believe that broadly speaking, Black people (both African-Americans from slave times and recent immigrants from Africa or anywhere else) face overt racism or unconscious biases in this country, which is unfortunate to say the least.
But I contend that I have not seen much of this in our churches, and no, I don't believe for one minute that the lack of blacks in my church is an indictment of anything. Any white seeker that joins our churches can tell of the difficulty of doing so. So I can imagine a black person would have all those difficulties, plus a sense of loneliness on top of it. Just as I suppose I'd have if I joined a black church in a predominately black country. And it is up to the church to put forth the extra effort to make the white seeker, or the black seeker/person feel one with the others.
Where we probably differ, is that I do not believe that black middle class people here in many states (maybe not all states) have any more roadblocks to financial or educational or housing opportunities than white middle class people do. I think there is a wide swath of black poverty that is more immobile than white poverty, but those differences narrow quite dramatically in the middle class and upward. To be clear, I'm not backing this up with data, that is just my opinion.

As far as to why blacks are in prison more, I think there is tons of studies on that. I wouldn't necessarily find fault with those studies. I'd say its probably a combination of unconscious bias, conscious profiling, and then of course criminal activity. On the criminal activity portion, I'd guess it is a combination of poverty/broken homes, and unequal arrests, prosecution and sentencing, particularly in comparison with white upper-middle class Americans. I'm broadly speaking here. I don't think white trash treated terribly much better, and I suppose black upper-middle class Americans fare better than the poor. And of course there are most likely regional variations when it comes to consistency too.

I'm not here to defend "fundamental conservative" racist churches that want to wave Trump flags and look like the world. Nor am I here to swallow some worldly liberal antidote for Trumpism. And maybe that isn't what CRT is (it's been a while since I tried to educate myself on what CRT is.). And to whatever extent ultra conservatives churches may have unconscious racial biases, they need to work on that too. But the fact remains that the Bible does sufficiently contain the answers for racism and economic disparity and earthly power.

Do you think our church is racist based only on the fact that not one black person is a member? Or do you accept that local demographics must be reasonably factored in?

The thing about identity is important. I think that as you have become more liberal, you are also unconsciously identifying more with the "white power structure". And as such, you feel that you should use your platform for good. And perhaps that is not all bad, to use ones platform for good. But what is more concerning, is your self identity. Historically, our people have had an identify of weakness. We were taught to be willing to go the second mile by Jesus. We were taught to turn the other cheek. Then in the Reformation era we again rejected government and power, and were again a persecuted people. And then more recently in WW1 we were spat on, our churches shot with guns, because we were not patriotic. Our identify and our DNA is to be the powerless, and the persecuted and to be the ones taken advantage of WILLINGLY. The more Mennonites become worldly, the more worldly they become, and they assimilate the ideas of their community. And so, some will become attracted to conservative causes and politics, for the same way and reason their rural community is. And some will become attracted to liberal causes and politics, for the same way and reasons their urban area is.
But if we can maintain our identity as it historically has been, we have a completely different take on racism. Instead of standing shoulder to shoulder with and as one of the powerful of the land, we find ourselves seeing a group of people who, like ourselves, are being given the short end of the stick. We plain people have rejected the levers of power, the levers of voting machines (and the levers of the casinos ) We are culturally accustom to withdrawing from those things as a Biblical response to temptations of power, and persecution. We should be inviting and teaching the black community that there is a way to live as a poor and powerless minority community in this nation. Than could be our contribution. Not telling them that they should resent their position, and take by force what is fair and just.

[Neto]

Whose music style should be used in an ethnically mixed congregation? If a mixture, then everyone may well be either bored or bothered part of the time. It might be manageable if there are only two cultural groups, but what about those who are only a few members, out of a hundred, that represent other minority cultures?
Whose preaching style will be used?
Whose dress & conduct standards will be followed (if any)?
Whose language would be used? (It is interesting that the Scripture doesn't say what language was used in the Jerusalem congregation, where we know both Aramaic and Greek speaking Jewish people belonged.)

As an example:
While we were in Brazil, we worshiped with three different cultural groups, none of which represented our own cultural or faith background.
Brazilian (language: Portuguese): a Pentecostal congregation made up of "river people" (some of the poorest of the poor, some of them illiterate squatters, none of whom owned a vehicle). Occasional sermons by visiting American Pentecostals, which were sometimes "teaching" everyone how to dance. (I had Brazilian friends in this congregation, like one of the mission center groundskeepers who always made a point to ask how the translation work was going, and was always friendly to the Indians when they were out with us. He regarded his work cutting grass and such as a part of the work of giving the Scripture to the isolated peoples of his country.)
Village (Language: Banawa): Services at night, at first out-doors, around a "singing pole" stuck in the ground in the middle of the airstrip. Music: a sort of chanting style, prayer, and a Scripture reading (when they requested it)
Mission Center (Language: English, although we had members, besides North Americans, on our mission center who were British, German, Dutch, Swiss, Argentine, & Brazilian): A mixture of Evangelical & Mainline Protestant mission members, sometimes Episcopalian

I also grew up in a mixed congregation, although it was a majority "Russian Mennonite" Plautdietsch people (like myself). There were also Americans who had come in from the outside, American Indians, some who had married in, and others where both parents were Indian. There was also one "white"-Black inter-ethnic couple. But these people mostly adapted to the Mennonite ways, although potlucks increasingly included foods from a number of different ethnicities.

[Josh]

Why are more men in prison than women? Is this due to systemic bias against men?

There are compelling reasons to think that yes...in fact there is systemic bias against men with regard to incarceration.

Are you sure? I’d say that men simply commit more violent crimes than women. There are more men that need to be confined to keep people safe, than there are women who need to be.

[Josh]

Why are (white) Russians poorer than (black) Americans? Is this due to systemic anti-Russianism?

If this persists after 4 centuries with several hundreds years of oppression mixed in, then yes. Are you really thinking the Russian experience is a close comparison of the black Americans?

America waged a Cold War against Russia including economic sanctions, and then for the last 30 years continues to be a political foe. Maybe or maybe not that has anything to do with the present situation. But Russians are much poorer than Americans.

Why are CA churches so “white”? Tell me, what ethnic groups are represented in CA churches? Which ones aren’t? Does race have anything at all to do with it?

More importantly; why does it bother you so much?

Well Revelation makes it pretty clear, as does Paul, that in the church of Jesus Christ all folks should be represented. If the church becomes merely ethnic enclaves that retain their insularity, then an inquiring mind would look into what is going on. Finny K has some good thoughts on the problems with purebred insular churches.

Individual congregations don’t represent the whole church. Perhaps some people prefer to worship with other people who are the same ethnic group / primary language etc. - who am I to tell them, “No, you should be having church with me, I’ll make some efforts to make you feel comfortable.”

My own denomination has 26,000 members so there’s no way we could even represent every ethnic group in the world. Is your ideal church one that has quotas for ethnic groups based on... America? North America? Globally? Chinese people are the world’s largest ethnic group, yet most Chinese people where I live prefer to go to their own congregations.

If those that have tried to fellowship with us experience racism then it makes me sad. I have good friends that fall into this category.

And even more, we lose if we don't enjoy the riches of other cultures' theologies, expressions of worship, fellowship etc.

I don’t view other cultures as a smorgasbord of “experiences” for me to have. I also don’t think multiple “theologies” really can be true at once and need to be “experienced”. That’s just a recipe for conflict.

Incidentally, in my own denomination, our majority black districts tend to think things like IVF and birth control should be considered sinful, whereas our majority white districts are more willing to practice these things. This was probably the most contentious issue the last time we could have a conference with those districts represented. But I don’t think this has anything to do with race - do you?

[RZehr]

Out of curiosity, I looked up the demographics of every county in my state. There was only 3 counties out of 36 that had 1% Black/African-Americans. Out of the three that were, one was 6.0%, one was 1.37% and one was 1.2%. No statistics on red headed people at the county level could I find. However, I think we we are okay on that quota, since we have 1.5 red head in the congregation. (How many can your church boast of?)
The diversity in this state are predominately Native Americans, and Central Americans, and then Asians, then African-Americans. Sure, this state had racist reason as to why there is no blacks here. But that does not translate into "white churches are racist because of their lack of black people" here.

I sometimes think about Maslows hierachy of human needs. I think its top stops short, in is incomplete. What it needs is one more layer to be the top. It actually is present in all the layers. And that is the spiritual hole that is within humans. Mazlow was an atheist and did not believe in religion. He simply placed it in Psychological/Social needs. To him there is no need for God or real spiritual needs. Especially as the West becomes rich and has Maslows 5 needs well and long ago met, life becomes more meaningless. And the spiritual need is obviously not being filled with any of the 5 categories. Life is hollow. And so, what we see in these wealthy secular people, is a need to do something to show their virtue, and a genuine need to set right wrongs. And since they have rejected God, they adopt secular ideologies as their faith and religion. They act with vigor and conviction and force to make people do and think what they ought - just like the Catholics used to do, and the Muslims still do. While we can have opinions and discussions on various ideas such as CRT, I don't think we should be hooking up our wagon to them, nor even creating an alliance with them.

[Sudsy]

Out of curiosity, I looked up the demographics of every county in my state. There was only 3 counties out of 36 that had 1% Black/African-Americans. Out of the three that were, one was 6.0%, one was 1.37% and one was 1.2%. No statistics on red headed people at the county level could I find. However, I think we we are okay on that quota, since we have 1.5 red head in the congregation. (How many can your church boast of?)
The diversity in this state are predominately Native Americans, and Central Americans, and then Asians, then African-Americans. Sure, this state had racist reason as to why there is no blacks here. But that does not translate into "white churches are racist because of their lack of black people" here.

I sometimes think about Maslows hierachy of human needs. I think its top stops short, in is incomplete. What it needs is one more layer to be the top. It actually is present in all the layers. And that is the spiritual hole that is within humans. Mazlow was an atheist and did not believe in religion. He simply placed it in Psychological/Social needs. To him there is no need for God or real spiritual needs. Especially as the West becomes rich and has Maslows 5 needs well and long ago met, life becomes more meaningless. And the spiritual need is obviously not being filled with any of the 5 categories. Life is hollow. And so, what we see in these wealthy secular people, is a need to do something to show their virtue, and a genuine need to set right wrongs. And since they have rejected God, they adopt secular ideologies as their faith and religion. They act with vigor and conviction and force to make people do and think what they ought - just like the Catholics used to do, and the Muslims still do. While we can have opinions and discussions on various ideas such as CRT, I don't think we should be hooking up our wagon to them, nor even creating an alliance with them.

Curious, regarding the underlined. Isn't this also true of what the more conservative groups within Christianity do ? Is there not force used to make people conform to their understanding of how a Christian must live ? What they think is a genuine need to live a holy life ? What am I missing here ?

[MaxPC]

Out of curiosity, I looked up the demographics of every county in my state. There was only 3 counties out of 36 that had 1% Black/African-Americans. Out of the three that were, one was 6.0%, one was 1.37% and one was 1.2%. No statistics on red headed people at the county level could I find. However, I think we we are okay on that quota, since we have 1.5 red head in the congregation. (How many can your church boast of?)
The diversity in this state are predominately Native Americans, and Central Americans, and then Asians, then African-Americans. Sure, this state had racist reason as to why there is no blacks here. But that does not translate into "white churches are racist because of their lack of black people" here.

I sometimes think about Maslows hierachy of human needs. I think its top stops short, in is incomplete. What it needs is one more layer to be the top. It actually is present in all the layers. And that is the spiritual hole that is within humans. Mazlow was an atheist and did not believe in religion. He simply placed it in Psychological/Social needs. To him there is no need for God or real spiritual needs. Especially as the West becomes rich and has Maslows 5 needs well and long ago met, life becomes more meaningless. And the spiritual need is obviously not being filled with any of the 5 categories. Life is hollow. And so, what we see in these wealthy secular people, is a need to do something to show their virtue, and a genuine need to set right wrongs. And since they have rejected God, they adopt secular ideologies as their faith and religion. They act with vigor and conviction and force to make people do and think what they ought - just like the Catholics used to do, and the Muslims still do. While we can have opinions and discussions on various ideas such as CRT, I don't think we should be hooking up our wagon to them, nor even creating an alliance with them.

Your post resonates with my own thinking on the subject. CRT and other ideologies are the golden calf idols of modern politics.

We have a living God who, through the Holy Spirit, guides us when we freely choose to follow Him. Personally I am glad that most Christian Churches now recognize that we have free will and that fidelity to Christ cannot be imposed via forced conversions and compliance; it is to be freely chosen by the indidual. It has taken centuries for much of Christianity to understand that but at this point in time, I do think most Churches understand this basic tenet of free will.

I also agree with your assessment of Maslow.

The great irony about the atheist Maslow is that he borrowed heavily from the writings of the Early Church Fathers who did include the Holy Spirit as integral to human needs. Maslow left out that bit about the Holy Spirit and claimed the ideas as his own.

[RZehr]

Out of curiosity, I looked up the demographics of every county in my state. There was only 3 counties out of 36 that had 1% Black/African-Americans. Out of the three that were, one was 6.0%, one was 1.37% and one was 1.2%. No statistics on red headed people at the county level could I find. However, I think we we are okay on that quota, since we have 1.5 red head in the congregation. (How many can your church boast of?)
The diversity in this state are predominately Native Americans, and Central Americans, and then Asians, then African-Americans. Sure, this state had racist reason as to why there is no blacks here. But that does not translate into "white churches are racist because of their lack of black people" here.

I sometimes think about Maslows hierachy of human needs. I think its top stops short, in is incomplete. What it needs is one more layer to be the top. It actually is present in all the layers. And that is the spiritual hole that is within humans. Mazlow was an atheist and did not believe in religion. He simply placed it in Psychological/Social needs. To him there is no need for God or real spiritual needs. Especially as the West becomes rich and has Maslows 5 needs well and long ago met, life becomes more meaningless. And the spiritual need is obviously not being filled with any of the 5 categories. Life is hollow. And so, what we see in these wealthy secular people, is a need to do something to show their virtue, and a genuine need to set right wrongs. And since they have rejected God, they adopt secular ideologies as their faith and religion. They act with vigor and conviction and force to make people do and think what they ought - just like the Catholics used to do, and the Muslims still do. While we can have opinions and discussions on various ideas such as CRT, I don't think we should be hooking up our wagon to them, nor even creating an alliance with them.

Curious, regarding the underlined. Isn't this also true of what the more conservative groups within Christianity do ? Is there not force used to make people conform to their understanding of how a Christian must live ? What they think is a genuine need to live a holy life ? What am I missing here ?

There is a significant difference between the normal pressure in a healthy, close knit brotherhood for someone to make good and right choices, vs. making someone choose between converting to religion or being killed. So my answer is no, this is not true of what the more conservative groups within Christianity do. And no, it is not real, actual force. Secularism hasn't thus far killed people because of a refusal to be brought to heal, that is true. But Secularism is absolutely comfortable with utilizing any real force at its disposal.

[Sudsy]

Out of curiosity, I looked up the demographics of every county in my state. There was only 3 counties out of 36 that had 1% Black/African-Americans. Out of the three that were, one was 6.0%, one was 1.37% and one was 1.2%. No statistics on red headed people at the county level could I find. However, I think we we are okay on that quota, since we have 1.5 red head in the congregation. (How many can your church boast of?)
The diversity in this state are predominately Native Americans, and Central Americans, and then Asians, then African-Americans. Sure, this state had racist reason as to why there is no blacks here. But that does not translate into "white churches are racist because of their lack of black people" here.

I sometimes think about Maslows hierachy of human needs. I think its top stops short, in is incomplete. What it needs is one more layer to be the top. It actually is present in all the layers. And that is the spiritual hole that is within humans. Mazlow was an atheist and did not believe in religion. He simply placed it in Psychological/Social needs. To him there is no need for God or real spiritual needs. Especially as the West becomes rich and has Maslows 5 needs well and long ago met, life becomes more meaningless. And the spiritual need is obviously not being filled with any of the 5 categories. Life is hollow. And so, what we see in these wealthy secular people, is a need to do something to show their virtue, and a genuine need to set right wrongs. And since they have rejected God, they adopt secular ideologies as their faith and religion. They act with vigor and conviction and force to make people do and think what they ought - just like the Catholics used to do, and the Muslims still do. While we can have opinions and discussions on various ideas such as CRT, I don't think we should be hooking up our wagon to them, nor even creating an alliance with them.

Curious, regarding the underlined. Isn't this also true of what the more conservative groups within Christianity do ? Is there not force used to make people conform to their understanding of how a Christian must live ? What they think is a genuine need to live a holy life ? What am I missing here ?

There is a significant difference between the normal pressure in a healthy, close knit brotherhood for someone to make good and right choices, vs. making someone choose between converting to religion or being killed. So my answer is no, this is not true of what the more conservative groups within Christianity do. And no, it is not real, actual force. Secularism hasn't thus far killed people because of a refusal to be brought to heal, that is true. But Secularism is absolutely comfortable with utilizing any real force at its disposal.

So, excommunicating people from one's group and treating them as 'dead to you' is a legitimate use of force within a Christian church quite unlike a secular group using forceful ways to get people to conform to their view of what is good and necessary. I don't get the difference but that's OK, I don't get a lot of things.

Regardless, I do agree we don't need to hook up with them because whenever I see the church hooking up with the world on some noble pursuit, Jesus gets removed from the process.