How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

[Josh]

Josh - That makes more sense. Thanks. So have you seen CL facilitate these sort of shifts and choices over the last nine years, or are you presuming that will be the inevitable result, perhaps?

It is already happening. If it walks like a duck and dresses like a duck, it is a duck. This group (at least the people I was around) seem to enthusiastically embrace the Charity vision (apparently The Godly Home still is going around because someone recommended it to me). The way they dress is identical to early Charity. It seems reasonable to expect they will progress with a style of dress exactly like every other Charity group.

I have come to love some of the W/F folks dearly in the 8 years we have been here. There are some wonderful, godly people there. Having said that, though - I'm inclined to have a lot of grace for kids like the bunch at CL, because the rather blatant spirit of condescension, condemnation and rudeness that is often perceived from a lot of W/F folks (and yes, also some of the folks in a few of the other Plainer groups here locally) has been unfortunate in its effect of driving renewal groups like CL away from perhaps effectively considering some of the values of where they came from. There are a lot more factors and history, I realize, but the damage to the Plain testimony of the Cumberland Valley really has been immeasurable... If ever there was a place to get disillusioned on Plain culture, this might be it. In spite of all that, I do wonder if groups like CL can persist a generation or two, whether some of that reactionism may have a chance to settle and allow them to reconsider their grounding a little more and perhaps address some of the transitional concerns mentioned in earlier posts...

I have no objection to any individuals in CL and indeed have had a pleasant time when I spent time with them.

However. The context I spent time with them was when I associated with a group of Keystone youth. For some reason CL youth would come up and visit. That seems rather obvious that CL people will move into the direction that Keystone youth are moving.

I feel that the CL group as a whole is blissfully unaware this is happening.

because the rather blatant spirit of condescension, condemnation and rudeness that is often perceived from a lot of W/F folks

It’s interesting you say this because I had some rude, hurtful interactions with CL people. I reminded myself, “These are W/F people. They don’t mean to be rude and hurtful. They are just a different culture than I am.” I would agree their culture suffers from a rather blatant spirit of condescension - but this doesn’t go away when a cluster of people simply go and form a new church.

In effect, City Light is a W/F church that has softened some of its standards and will be comfortable further softening them in the future. The problem at hand is that whatever was “wrong” with W/F will persist and follow them. (I would suspect they aren’t even aware of these problems, and I’m not really someone who even expects people to drastically change their culture.)

[Marylander]

I have come to love some of the W/F folks dearly in the 8 years we have been here. There are some wonderful, godly people there. Having said that, though - I'm inclined to have a lot of grace for kids like the bunch at CL, because the rather blatant spirit of condescension, condemnation and rudeness that is often perceived from a lot of W/F folks (and yes, also some of the folks in a few of the other Plainer groups here locally) has been unfortunate in its effect of driving renewal groups like CL away from perhaps effectively considering some of the values of where they came from. There are a lot more factors and history, I realize, but the damage to the Plain testimony of the Cumberland Valley really has been immeasurable... If ever there was a place to get disillusioned on Plain culture, this might be it. In spite of all that, I do wonder if groups like CL can persist a generation or two, whether some of that reactionism may have a chance to settle and allow them to reconsider their grounding a little more and perhaps address some of the transitional concerns mentioned in earlier posts...

Sheesh, that's pretty hard hitting. Could you please elaborate on your "perception" of condescension and condemnation?

And is City Light where Peter Hoover is a member?

[Heirbyadoption]

I have come to love some of the W/F folks dearly in the 8 years we have been here. There are some wonderful, godly people there. Having said that, though - I'm inclined to have a lot of grace for kids like the bunch at CL, because the rather blatant spirit of condescension, condemnation and rudeness that is often perceived from a lot of W/F folks (and yes, also some of the folks in a few of the other Plainer groups here locally) has been unfortunate in its effect of driving renewal groups like CL away from perhaps effectively considering some of the values of where they came from. There are a lot more factors and history, I realize, but the damage to the Plain testimony of the Cumberland Valley really has been immeasurable... If ever there was a place to get disillusioned on Plain culture, this might be it. In spite of all that, I do wonder if groups like CL can persist a generation or two, whether some of that reactionism may have a chance to settle and allow them to reconsider their grounding a little more and perhaps address some of the transitional concerns mentioned in earlier posts...

Sheesh, that's pretty hard hitting. Could you please elaborate on your "perception" of condescension and condemnation?
And is City Light where Peter Hoover is a member?

That was actually pretty gracious. I'd never encountered anything like it in my Mennonite encounters until I moved into the area. I don't know that elaboration would be much of a benefit to this particular conversation, though, even if factual... Do you have much WashCo interaction, or family among them? And Peter was at City Light, yes. Haven't been down there in a little while, I presume that's still the case.

[Sudsy]

Do you have an answer to the question in the thread title?

Yes, I already answered that. Join the Pentecostals. A few times I have witnessed a Pentecostal leaving one Pentecostal church for another but that was not on doctrine or practise. Sometimes they just can't get along with someone. And one other case where a UPC (non-trinitarian) left to join a trinitarian Pentecostal and I suppose this has happened the other way around too.

This transfering up and down the scale of sanctification, I believe is mainly an Anabaptist phenomena.

I have yet to find a Pentecostal church that teaches that killing other humans is wrong.

Wow, you need to get around more. Just kidding.

I would not put it the way you did as I believe Pentecostals and others make a difference in killing over a personal issue compared to participating in wars to stop evil from advancing. The former, they would say is breaking the 'thou shalt not kill' whereas the latter is permitted in more as a personal conviction issue regarding participating in stopping evil in wars. Our most recent MB pastor came from a Pentecostal background, yet He was a pacifist as that is not a Pentecostal church requirement and is considered more a personal conviction.

If you look into the history of Pentecostals, up until sometime after the WWII, Pentecostals were pacifist in teaching. Here is a summary statement of the Assemblies of God regarding participating and killing other humans back in 1917 - https://pcpj.org/pentecostal-pacifism/

THEREFORE we, as a body of Christians, while purposing to fulfill all the obligations of loyal citizenship, are nevertheless constrained to declare we cannot conscientiously participate in war and armed resistance which involves the actual destruction of human life, since this is contrary to our view of the clear teachings of the inspired Word of God, which is the sole basis of our faith.

During the first half century of American Pentecostal history, from 1906 until sometime in the 1950s, most Pentecostal denominations had official or unofficial expectations that their members would not “bear arms” but serve as non-combatants if drafted.

But like many things in Pentecostalism certain practises have changed and certainly have within my lifetime. By 1967 the change was from “absolute pacifism to authority of the individual conscience”.

I certainly would not promote Pentecostalism in many areas, especially in practise, as although they don't have big splitting issues among themselves, I have my reservations on how they 'become all things to all people' to see them saved. I think when Paul said he became like a Jew to win the Jews for Christ, he did not mean we need to become more like the world to win others to Christ. However, on the other hand, there are real conversions going on in Pentecostalism, especially in third world countries due to their outreach emphasis.

Well, got off topic a bit so back to Anabaptist challenges.

[Marylander]

I have come to love some of the W/F folks dearly in the 8 years we have been here. There are some wonderful, godly people there. Having said that, though - I'm inclined to have a lot of grace for kids like the bunch at CL, because the rather blatant spirit of condescension, condemnation and rudeness that is often perceived from a lot of W/F folks (and yes, also some of the folks in a few of the other Plainer groups here locally) has been unfortunate in its effect of driving renewal groups like CL away from perhaps effectively considering some of the values of where they came from. There are a lot more factors and history, I realize, but the damage to the Plain testimony of the Cumberland Valley really has been immeasurable... If ever there was a place to get disillusioned on Plain culture, this might be it. In spite of all that, I do wonder if groups like CL can persist a generation or two, whether some of that reactionism may have a chance to settle and allow them to reconsider their grounding a little more and perhaps address some of the transitional concerns mentioned in earlier posts...

Sheesh, that's pretty hard hitting. Could you please elaborate on your "perception" of condescension and condemnation?
And is City Light where Peter Hoover is a member?

That was actually pretty gracious.

Actually it wasn't. It's curious when people exhibit the same behavior they decry in other groups.

And, yes, I do a lot of business with them and they are some of my best customers...pay promptly and can extend old fashioned credit and not worry that they will default.

I also might mention that they are aiding the Ukrainian refugee community...giving them jobs, homes, and lots of potatoes.

[Heirbyadoption]

Sheesh, that's pretty hard hitting. Could you please elaborate on your "perception" of condescension and condemnation? And is City Light where Peter Hoover is a member?

That was actually pretty gracious.

Actually it wasn't. It's curious when people exhibit the same behavior they decry in other groups.

And, yes, I do a lot of business with them and they are some of my best customers...pay promptly and can extend old fashioned credit and not worry that they will default.

I also might mention that they are aiding the Ukrainian refugee community...giving them jobs, homes, and lots of potatoes.

Actually, it was... (Robert, I need a "shrug" emoji). I could tell you horror stories, but we'll agree to disagree, I suppose, and I'll say no more on it publicly; assume what you will.

I'm honestly glad you're having good experiences with folks from their group, though. Some of them are our best customers too, some of them are not; obviously no generalization will ever be completely accurate. And far as helping the Ukrainians, hey, that's wonderful. So are folks from several of the other Plain groups around the valley as well. And from non-Plain groups too, for that matter. Always great to see folks reaching out.

[cooper]

Actually, it was... (Robert, I need a "shrug" emoji). I could tell you horror stories, but we'll agree to disagree, I suppose, and I'll say no more on it publicly; assume what you will.

I'm honestly glad you're having good experiences with folks from their group, though. Some of them are our best customers too, some of them are not; obviously no generalization will ever be completely accurate. And far as helping the Ukrainians, hey, that's wonderful. So are folks from several of the other Plain groups around the valley as well. And from non-Plain groups too, for that matter. Always great to see folks reaching out.

I grew up in the valley in W/F. I think heir's description is fair. I had to leave the valley so I could still love my heritage. It's interesting to hear an outsider's perspective. W/F has an icky reputation among conservative Mennonites. I'm glad I'm no longer in an environment where that stigma lives. I left, so I get it but even if you don't like your family you don't like other people criticizing them. There is a lot of idealizing and devaluing of W/F as well as criticism of City Light in this thread. These people are my people, and they're very much like the people I meet elsewhere. No better but also no worse. I find the criticism of City Light troubling because it's a smaller group and feels a lot more targeted. For what it's worth, few people leaving W/F are transitioning to City Light. In some ways, I would see them as more restrictive than W/F.

[Josh]

I would not put it the way you did as I believe Pentecostals and others make a difference in killing over a personal issue compared to participating in wars to stop evil from advancing. The former, they would say is breaking the 'thou shalt not kill' whereas the latter is permitted in more as a personal conviction issue regarding participating in stopping evil in wars. Our most recent MB pastor came from a Pentecostal background, yet He was a pacifist as that is not a Pentecostal church requirement and is considered more a personal conviction.

And I believe that justifying killing others goes against the teachings of Jesus to me.

If you look into the history of Pentecostals, up until sometime after the WWII, Pentecostals were pacifist in teaching. Here is a summary statement of the Assemblies of God regarding participating and killing other humans back in 1917 - https://pcpj.org/pentecostal-pacifism/

That's nice, but it's not 1917. Can you point me to a Pentecostal church today that embraces and teaches nonresistance? The closest thing I have ever found is Homestead Heritage, which is a Oneness type of group.

But like many things in Pentecostalism certain practises have changed and certainly have within my lifetime. By 1967 the change was from “absolute pacifism to authority of the individual conscience”.

I think Jesus and the Bible are the same yesterday, today, and forever. If killing people was wrong in 1917, it still is today. In 1967, killing people in war did not suddenly become something Jesus thinks is OK. I don't think Jesus was pleased at all to see so many American Christians go to Vietnam and kill people on behalf of a "war" that they ended up losing anyway.

If anything, what you have said proves me point about the dangers of transitionalism: eventually, one will lose everything valuable, eventually even belief in the Bible and Jesus himself.

[Josh]

And, yes, I do a lot of business with them and they are some of my best customers...pay promptly and can extend old fashioned credit and not worry that they will default.

I also might mention that they are aiding the Ukrainian refugee community...giving them jobs, homes, and lots of potatoes.

One of the traits of transitional Anabaptists is that they have the heritage of the more-strict group they came from. They are often very beloved by their neighbours.

W/F teaches that someone should always pay their debts and never default. Likewise, W/F taught that it is important to do good charitable deeds.

You appreciate doing business with W/F background people (even as they are transitioning to being less plain), because of that heritage. My objection is that eventually that heritage will be lost; if I look at how Mennonites function who have nearly completely transitioned to the world, they pull the same stunts as everyone else (slow paying invoices, forcing Net 90 terms on smaller subcontractors, demanding W-9s be mailed to them with a wet signature that get "lost in the mail", having their LLC go bankrupt and then form a new LLC and all the subs are stuck trying to get the old LLC to pay them, and so forth).

As far as giving aid to Ukrainian refugees, even the most liberal of Mennonites do that. Including the ones who non-theistic, like our good friends at Community Peacemaker Teams (formerly Christian Peacemaker Teams, but they decided Christ wasn't needed anymore).

[Josh]

Actually, it was... (Robert, I need a "shrug" emoji). I could tell you horror stories, but we'll agree to disagree, I suppose, and I'll say no more on it publicly; assume what you will.

I'm honestly glad you're having good experiences with folks from their group, though. Some of them are our best customers too, some of them are not; obviously no generalization will ever be completely accurate. And far as helping the Ukrainians, hey, that's wonderful. So are folks from several of the other Plain groups around the valley as well. And from non-Plain groups too, for that matter. Always great to see folks reaching out.

I grew up in the valley in W/F. I think heir's description is fair. I had to leave the valley so I could still love my heritage. It's interesting to hear an outsider's perspective. W/F has an icky reputation among conservative Mennonites. I'm glad I'm no longer in an environment where that stigma lives. I left, so I get it but even if you don't like your family you don't like other people criticizing them. There is a lot of idealizing and devaluing of W/F as well as criticism of City Light in this thread. These people are my people, and they're very much like the people I meet elsewhere. No better but also no worse. I find the criticism of City Light troubling because it's a smaller group and feels a lot more targeted. For what it's worth, few people leaving W/F are transitioning to City Light. In some ways, I would see them as more restrictive than W/F.

It really is something that must be experienced to be believed. I interacted with a man whose behaviour decries a number of norms. Eventually I learned he was from a W/F background (he eventually married Nationwide so went there, eventually matriculated to a less-conservative church, moved and went to Northeastern, and then attended at Mid-West for a while). Once I understood his background, his behaviour was much easier for me to understand and to even accept instead of feeling hurt.

My chief objection is that whatever problems W/F has with having a culture the rest of America perceives as rude and unkind, moving a bunch of W/F people to a less-conservative church does zero to fix that, such as my former remarks about City Light people.