Anabaptist perspective of the Creation narrative?

[Falco Underhill]

Origen says the Firmament is "corporeal." Then he says that all corporeal things are solid. If is premises are true, then clear deductive logic results in the firmament being without a doubt solid. I don't see any other way of reading what you quoted. Origen certainly seemed to believe his premises were true.

Origen's larger point is that the whole creation narrative with respect to separation of the waters is really for him about the division between the spiritual and corporeal realms of our existence. So far as I can see he isn't much concerned with the question of the physical nature of the firmament, other than to show that it is a physical rather than a spiritual thing.

Let me just say I don't consider Wayne's argument settled by this reference alone (Sorry Wayne!) I haven't been able to check the others yet.

[Falco Underhill]

Addendum:

Here's the quote again:

But after that he makes the firmament, that is, the corporeal heaven. For every corporeal object is, without doubt, firm and solid;

I think Origen is just saying since "firmament" is etymologically related to "firm and solid" and what is firm and solid is corporeal, then we know this scripture is referring to a corporeal thing as opposed to the heavenly abode. This also might be a bad translation. The etymology of "firmament" is firm and stable rather than firm and solid. I'm guessing "solid" might have been a mistranslation on someone's part. Either way Origen was just trying to tie the etymology of "firmament" to something like "body." He wasn't trying to give a lesson in physics.

[Soloist]

Addendum:

Here's the quote again:

But after that he makes the firmament, that is, the corporeal heaven. For every corporeal object is, without doubt, firm and solid;

I think Origen is just saying since "firmament" is etymologically related to "firm and solid" and what is firm and solid is corporeal, then we know this scripture is referring to a corporeal thing as opposed to the heavenly abode. This also might be a bad translation. The etymology of "firmament" is firm and stable rather than firm and solid. I'm guessing "solid" might have been a mistranslation on someone's part. Either way Origen was just trying to tie the etymology of "firmament" to something like "body." He wasn't trying to give a lesson in physics.

Effectively in my quote he is arguing that air is corporeal as well as water. Therefore, the understanding of what he means by firm and solid might not be being translated well.

[Falco Underhill]

Effectively in my quote he is arguing that air is corporeal as well as water. Therefore, the understanding of what he means by firm and solid might not be being translated well.

Thanks for the helpful quotation. Clearly Origen thought air was a corporeal body.

For air is a body; as all who understand what they say declare, whenever they speak concerning bodily substances.

He also says air has "corporeity" and the proof is we can feel its effects when the wind blows and see the effects it has on physical things that are inflated, etc.

But you, because I called the soul incorporeal, supposed me not only to predicate mere emptiness of it, but, as the result of such predication, to say that it is “an airy substance;” whereas I must have said both that it has not corporeity, which air has, and that what is filled with air could not be empty. And your own bag similes failed to remind you of this. For when the bags are inflated, what is it but air that is pressed into them? And they are so far from being empty, that by reason of their distension they become even ponderous. But perhaps the breath seems to you to be a different thing from air; although your very breath is nothing else than air in motion; and what this is, can be seen from the shaking of a fan. With respect to any hollow vessels, which you may suppose to be empty, you may ascertain with certainty that they are really full, by lowering them straight into the water, with the mouth downwards. You see no water can get in, by reason of the air with which they are filled. If, however, they are lowered either in the opposite way, with mouth upward, or aslant, they then fill, as the water enters at the same opening where the air passes out and escapes. This could be, of course, more easily proved by performing the experiment, than by a description in writing.

This clearly demonstrates Origen believed "air has corporeity," is a "bodily substance" and is something tangible as is seen from its various effects. Air for Origen could even be "firm and solid" insofar as it could be "pressed into bags." Therefore, the firmament, even considered as something "firm and solid" might for Origen be a reference to a region of air.

Excellent work Soloist!