CORRECTION - re: relationship between Ukrainian & Russian:
As I said, I cannot access the site Dr Everett referred to, but I went back to that discussion, and hadn't seen all of it -- things that were added later, probably during the 3 or 4 days our internet was down. He did later say that the separation was not as far back as my source stated. He then quoted from his source:
Due to heavy borrowings from Polish, German, Czech and Latin, early modern vernacular Ukrainian (prosta mova, "simple speech") had more lexical similarity with West Slavic languages than with Russian or Church Slavonic. By the mid-17th century, the linguistic divergence between the Ukrainian and Russian languages had become so significant that there was a need for translators during negotiations for the Treaty of Pereyaslav, between Bohdan Khmelnytsky, head of the Zaporozhian Host, and the Russian state.
(The Treaty of Pereyaslav was apparently in 1654, which was well before the first Dutch Mennonites moved from Prussia to Ukraine.)
I referenced the Kyvian Rus domain earlier (in another thread), but here's a map of that. (This map is not dated, but I think this was the territory held around the peak of that empire in the 900's AD.
Josh wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:34 pm The USSR was a unitary country. The various socialist republics had virtually no autonomy, probably less than U.S. states have.
The U.S./Left-West didn’t take the step from USSR to the Federation of Russia, so, going further back is interesting history, but doesn’t seem pertinent to the immediate crisis.
I have argued along the same lines, but President Putin doesn't see it that way.
He talks about the 1,000 year history of Russia. (By the way, Kyvian history goes back hundreds of years farther.)
temporal1 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:55 pm
The U.S./Left-West didn’t take the step from USSR to the Federation of Russia, so, going further back is interesting history, but doesn’t seem pertinent to the immediate crisis.
I have argued along the same lines, but President Putin doesn't see it that way. He talks about the 1,000 year history of Russia. (By the way, Kyvian history goes back hundreds of years farther.)
I think history is very pertinent to the immediate crisis in regards to both Russian and Ukrainian motivation in this conflict.
Definitely, history is not irrelevant! This thread includes lots of history, recent and distant. All pieces of the puzzle.
But, i believe, for the TALKS to bear fruit, their focus must be present, and intentionally not forays into the past. That could quickly become hopeless. On both sides.
If Putin needs leadership in this, so be it. The rules must apply to both sides in negotiations.
Both sides are untrusting. Trust is never immediate. It must be earned: on both sides.
i don’t imagine immediate peace. i pray for resolution. (that might lead to future peace.) no one is holding their breath.
when i said “not pertinent,” i didn’t intend to imply “irrelevant.” maybe my words were not clear, or correct?
but i see the TALKS of critical nature, esp to stop immediate violence. i imagine the need for focus in the moment. triage, even.
“stop the bleeding!”
Last edited by temporal1 on Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Dictionaries and standard linguistics texts say Ukranian is a language, not a dialect. Maps have an area labeled "Ukraine". Many Ukranians seem to feel very strongly that their country has a right to exist - and that includes many whose native language is Russian or who live in the "Russian parts" of Ukraine.
Identity is complex. If Ukranians who speak Russian automatically want to become part of Putin's Russia, how do you explain what is happening on the ground? Or how do you explain Zelenskyy, whose native language is Ukranian but clearly does not want to join Russia.
Have you heard some of the interviews with Russian-speaking refugees from Ukraine? Or from Russians who have left their country over this conflict?
Stalin was Georgian. If you’re going to insist Ukraine is not Russian, then Stalin wasn’t Russian either.
I also find your assertion that the USSR was more free than present day Russia laughable.
Stalin wasn't Russian. He reportedly spoke Russian with a thick Georgian accent.
Only about 50% of the population of the USSR was ethnically Russian.
And I never said the USSR was more free. I simply said that the government was less centered on one man like today. The politburo actually had real power and engaged in real substantive policy debates compared to today's Duma which simply rubber stamps whatever Putin says. The period of Stalin was an exception. But during the time of Brezhnev and Gorbachev the politburo had real power.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin (born Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili; 18 December [O.S. 6 December] 1878 – 5 March 1953) was a Georgian revolutionary and Soviet political leader who governed the Soviet Union from 1922 until his death in 1953. He held power as General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (1922–1952) and Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the Soviet Union (1941–1953). Initially governing the country as part of a collective leadership, he consolidated power to become dictator by the 1930s. Ideologically adhering to the Leninist interpretation of Marxism, he formalised these ideas as Marxism-Leninism, while his own policies are called Stalinism.
Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin (born Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili; 18 December [O.S. 6 December] 1878 – 5 March 1953) was a Georgian revolutionary and Soviet political leader who governed the Soviet Union from 1922 until his death in 1953. He held power as General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (1922–1952) and Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the Soviet Union (1941–1953). Initially governing the country as part of a collective leadership, he consolidated power to become dictator by the 1930s. Ideologically adhering to the Leninist interpretation of Marxism, he formalised these ideas as Marxism-Leninism, while his own policies are called Stalinism.
Well the Ukraine was controlled by Russia, as a state of Russia, for several hundred years? No?
Also worth mentioning - the "Russian speaking" regions of Ukraine are fairly mixed, and most people understand both languages. This map shows fluency in Ukrainian (purple column) and Russian (blue column) in 1989 and 2001 - none of these regions is purely "Russian Speaking" versus "Ukranian Speaking".
