Oasis Chorale dancing

[seeking-artist]

Had Plain Anabaptists not required only A Capella singing, and had they not had restrictions on music and dampers on going to school, I'm guessing that we would see among Plain Anabaptists a similar sort of spread of musicians/genres referenced above (and no Plain Anabaptist movement producing the kind of hymns and hymnals and musicians that we are gifted with in the present.)

I agree in part: some of the restrictions have indeed encouraged musicians to expand their talents with a more limited context. In church contexts that have restrictions on instruments and CCM, for instance, those musically inclined are going to pursue quality choral music. But I think some of this reflects positive community dynamics, not just the restriction element. Many conservative churches have a robust tradition of choral singing, where youth are singing at their hangouts, or more serious musicians join touring choirs, etc. Take away these positive traditions but keep the restrictions, and I think we'd see a very different picture.

At risk of pointing out the obvious, there are plenty of environments outside of an Anabaptist context where musicianship is encouraged and usually ends in a particular genre. This is where I still don't think the statistics you cite are relevant. There is no broad, general music education that equally distributes musicians across genres. I'm a piano teacher, and my intermediate and advanced students (mostly Anabaptist) are all playing classical. If any of my students turn to rock, for instance, it won't be because of anything I taught them. In fact, to the contrary, as a result of my teaching and my own classical bent, my students almost without exception become more interested in classical music as a result of my teaching. I don't think I'm unusual in this regard. Most teachers/teaching approaches are going to push students towards one (or maybe a couple) genres.

My contention would be that a strong commitment to education within a classical context, essentially as a continued development of what already exists, would hardly jeopardize the current tradition. Unless, of course, a tradition that includes music like Beethoven string quartets, Schubert lieder cycles, and Chopin mazurkas would be seen jeopardizing the tradition?

I guess to put my point a little more emphatically, if there isn't a clear path for a classical musician to pursue the kind of path outlined above, the idea that musicians have to leave the community to pursue their musical career is entirely valid.

[JohnH]

At risk of pointing out the obvious, there are plenty of environments outside of an Anabaptist context where musicianship is encouraged and usually ends in a particular genre. This is where I still don't think the statistics you cite are relevant. There is no broad, general music education that equally distributes musicians across genres. I'm a piano teacher, and my intermediate and advanced students (mostly Anabaptist) are all playing classical. If any of my students turn to rock, for instance, it won't be because of anything I taught them.

#1. I would suggest you try getting some exposure to people who aren't Anabaptists.

#2. What makes you think that educating students in piano won't let them to "turn to rock"? (Why would them turning to rock instead of classical even be a bad thing?)

Your lack of insight into how closely related classical music and "rock music" are makes me think that your purported musical education is lacking, despite your protestations of how valuable it is to you. There are lots of resources available to learn more about music; part of it would start with getting rid of anti-rock music bigotry.

My contention would be that a strong commitment to education within a classical context, essentially as a continued development of what already exists, would hardly jeopardize the current tradition. Unless, of course, a tradition that includes music like Beethoven string quartets, Schubert lieder cycles, and Chopin mazurkas would be seen jeopardizing the tradition?

Contexts where conservative Anabaptists already embraced classical music, such as the ones you quoted that I am guessing lets you telegraph signals of being a cultured, sophisticated person (if this is not your intent, feel free to correct me), have communities of young people who are simply busy listening to Christian contemporary music, pop music, and country. (Rock music isn't that popular these days, mostly because it's old and out of date. One might as well be busy talking about flappers, Big Band, or shoegazing.)

The rest of conservative and plain Anabaptism looks at people insisting we need to bring in worldly music and goes, "Hmm, nobody has succeeded in having some kind of lofty standard that classical music is OK but somehow country isn't. We'll pass."

[seeking-artist]

Your lack of insight into how closely related classical music and "rock music" are makes me think that your purported musical education is lacking, despite your protestations of how valuable it is to you. There are lots of resources available to learn more about music; part of it would start with getting rid of anti-rock music bigotry.

I want to have a constructive conversation but I feel like you're making it hard. You were already warned off by mods for giving me a hard time about education. I'm also not sure what you're after. I've been working as a full music teacher for the better part of the past decade, and I am currently a grad student in music. Yes, I still have a lot to learn, although I wish you'd acknowledge the same. I have no idea where this drive to blur all genres of music together is coming from. Rock music is indeed influenced heavily by classical, but it's quite a different art form. Further education actually makes the distinctions more clear, not less.

I'm also not "anti-rock." I'm a classical musician, so my tastes naturally lean in that direction. What's wrong with me wanting my students to play classical rather than rock?

[Ernie]

But I think some of this reflects positive community dynamics, not just the restriction element. Many conservative churches have a robust tradition of choral singing, where youth are singing at their hangouts, or more serious musicians join touring choirs, etc. Take away these positive traditions but keep the restrictions, and I think we'd see a very different picture.

The big question is, "How do you get these positive community dynamics and long traditions in the first place?"
I think it is a combination of restrictions as well as the musically inclined being willing to forgo formal training and forgo performances in order to invest their talents into a Plain community. A few people in the community may be able to pursue formal training quietly without messing up the positive dynamics and traditions but once there is a concerted effort to ramp up the education and the performances, there is soon no Plain community to go with it. It has happened over and over and over. I'm always open to someone figuring out a way to beat the odds and if you figure out a way to do it, you can let me know.

[seeking-artist]

But I think some of this reflects positive community dynamics, not just the restriction element. Many conservative churches have a robust tradition of choral singing, where youth are singing at their hangouts, or more serious musicians join touring choirs, etc. Take away these positive traditions but keep the restrictions, and I think we'd see a very different picture.

The big question is, "How do you get these positive community dynamics and long traditions in the first place?"
I think it is a combination of restrictions as well as the musically inclined being willing to forgo formal training and forgo performances in order to invest their talents into a Plain community. A few people in the community may be able to pursue formal training quietly without messing up the positive dynamics and traditions but once there is a concerted effort to ramp up the education and the performances, there is soon no Plain community to go with it. It has happened over and over and over. I'm always open to someone figuring out a way to beat the odds and if you figure out a way to do it, you can let me know.

I'm aware of these kinds of historical arguments; I'm never sure if they prove the point intended. For instance, if you have a community with a rigid restriction that is eventually challenged and then the community fragments in the process, this seems to swing both directions. Sure, maybe the lesson is that the structure shouldn't; be challenged. Or perhaps it's the opposite: overly rigid structures ask for implosion once individuals want to think more for themselves. Regardless, is there actually a principled objection to having more performing artists within an Anabaptist community? To me that's the most important question. If the answer is no, then we can move on to figuring out how to make it work.

[JohnH]

I'm aware of these kinds of historical arguments; I'm never sure if they prove the point intended. For instance, if you have a community with a rigid restriction that is eventually challenged and then the community fragments in the process, this seems to swing both directions. Sure, maybe the lesson is that the structure shouldn't; be challenged. Or perhaps it's the opposite: overly rigid structures ask for implosion once individuals want to think more for themselves. Regardless, is there actually a principled objection to having more performing artists within an Anabaptist community? To me that's the most important question. If the answer is no, then we can move on to figuring out how to make it work.

Every time adopting worldly trends is tried, the plain community ends up basically ceasing to exist. Shouldn't the burden of proof, at some point, be on the people who want to liberalise to prove how this won't happen for the umpteenth time?

[Ernie]

Regardless, is there actually a principled objection to having more performing artists within an Anabaptist community? To me that's the most important question. If the answer is no, then we can move on to figuring out how to make it work.

For Plain Anabaptists, the principled objection is that performance art generally fosters pride and a love for the world.

Many Non-Plain Anabaptists believe the opposite is true and they have been "figuring out how to make it work in their communities" since about 1850.

[seeking-artist]

Every time adopting worldly trends is tried, the plain community ends up basically ceasing to exist. Shouldn't the burden of proof, at some point, be on the people who want to liberalise to prove how this won't happen for the umpteenth time?

Do you think your indulgence in Max Martin threatens the stability of your community, then? I feel like it's a guessing game if you're going to criticize me for being too worldly or not worldly enough.

[JohnH]

I want to have a constructive conversation but I feel like you're making it hard.

I feel the same way. You've engaged in repeated appeals to authority (without ever bothering to ask me what my own background or credentials might be, making an assumption I am uneducated simply because I take a position against worldly pursuits in music).

You were already warned off by mods for giving me a hard time about education.

Yet another appeal to authority.

I'm also not sure what you're after. I've been working as a full music teacher for the better part of the past decade, and I am currently a grad student in music. Yes, I still have a lot to learn, although I wish you'd acknowledge the same.

Dude, you claimed that Max Martin never used polyphony:

The primary characteristics of the music of Bach, such as extensive counterpoint, polyphony, extended motif development, rich and changing harmonic palate, are nowhere in Max Martin.

I pointed out that polyphony is quite prevalent in his most famous songs, as opposed to "nowhere in Max Martin". Yet you didn't acknowledge your error. It's frustrating to talk to someone who talks up their own education and accomplishments, yet simultaneously seems unaware of quite basic things about the music world at large. I apologise if that feels offensive, but you started this off with acting like people without your level of education shouldn't be listened to; if you get something as dead wrong as claiming polyphony is nowhere to be found in Max Martin, how do I know you're actually correct about the rest of your claims about music that you have supported with your appeals to authority and your own education?

I'm also not "anti-rock." I'm a classical musician, so my tastes naturally lean in that direction. What's wrong with me wanting my students to play classical rather than rock?

Because I think your motivations to do this is to soothe concerned plain Anabaptists who would say, "We are concerned that promoting worldly classical music will eventually lead to worldly pop, rock, hip-hop, rap, R&B, and country." I understand your motivation, but I think you need to listen to their concerns about a slippery slope much more seriously.

I have tried to make a case for the rather close association between m post-Renaissance Western forms of music, although you keep arguing with me that they aren't there, despite that being a very, very broad consensus. I'm not sure where to go with that.

[JohnH]

Every time adopting worldly trends is tried, the plain community ends up basically ceasing to exist. Shouldn't the burden of proof, at some point, be on the people who want to liberalise to prove how this won't happen for the umpteenth time?

Do you think your indulgence in Max Martin threatens the stability of your community, then? I feel like it's a guessing game if you're going to criticize me for being too worldly or not worldly enough.

Generally speaking, I don't listen to recordings at all, although it's nearly impossible not to do since they are often incidental to instructional video, present in piped music in public, and so forth.

My conference used to have a stance against "tape recorders", although it doesn't anymore (mostly due to the concept of a "tape recorder" being obsolete, and a general feeling in the conference that obsolete "rules" should be removed). There is still a stance against instrumental and professional acapella recordings, but in practical terms, acapella recordings are tolerated as long as they are distributed via WhatsApp or Telegram. Some people push the boundaries and make professional acapella recordings with a studio, reverb, effects, auto-tune, and so forth, and then launder the audio files into WhatsApp or Telegram so it looks like a voice recording.

There is also a recent trend of AI-produced music that is targeted at plain people (with instrumentation) which also seems to be spreading, primarily among people are age 70+ and don't seem to realise it is AI generated. This is another concerning trend, since the ability to generate this is basically limitless and it can be targeted very, very narrowly to groups of people to find what most appeals with them. I hope you'll agree that entirely AI generated music like this does not promote musicianship, artistry, good music, or Christian values and principles.